With the new ability to reprogram factory ECU's, and the ability to raise the rev-limiter (IN WHATEVER gears you want to raise it in) (i.e you can raise the limiter in 3rd or 4th gear but leave it stock in neutral 1st and second) i figured it was worth opening the discussion on this topic to see what peoples thoughts are. The majority are following the rules is my guess since this is such a new development, however, ECUS can be re-set to have a higher limiter in a certain gear or gears. (I.E. the tech guys could be overlooking if not checking the limiter in the gear that was actually RACED). For purposes of equality i feel either the tech people need to start checking the cars with a "tech in the appropriate gear" or allow rev-boxes again to keep tech simple, since some may have these newly adjusted boxes and may be using them and still be able to pass the "free-rev or 1st/2nd gear tech".
In addition to saving engines, the rules are set up FIRSTLY to try and promote equality. What are everyones thoughts?? This is a very relevant and important topic. I hope something can be done before it becomes a FREE-FOR-ALL.:confused:

I have been working on an "Black Box" for the Sidewinders. This would be zip tied into the car and plugged into the tach/power plug while on the starting grid before competing. It will data log the racing RPM of the engine during the race lap for lap. The box would be placed into random cars every night thus everyone would have a chance of having it put into their car at anytime. Maybe this is something the U6SA might want to do. Then no more free rev,s after the race just plug in and look at data.

Rick, this is a valid concern. We, Guhl Motors, have not and will not be willing to perform this service for anyone. Members of the tech committee have had several preliminary meetings/discussions regarding this very matter. It is rather easy to tech rev limits in multiple gears with the GUTS system. This knowledge has been shared with those tech people that we have been able to get in contact with. There will be more information available at the upcoming U6SA meeting including a breif training seminar for all in attendance. If any tech personnel would like additional information regarding GUTS and its techability (is that a word?) we are encouraging them to call us at 717-618-4212.

Having thought about this problem for a couple weeks, one thought is to check rev limits by lifting the rear wheels and check RPM with the engine in the gear that's being raced. The tech person could verify the gear by first confirming what gears are on the car. ie. 13/54 in 3rd gear. That information would not be shared with competitors but a good tech person with a gear chart should be able to confirm what gear the car would be raced in. I intend to persent this issue to both Airport and Bridgeport Speedway officals because if we can't enforce the stock RPM limits then they need to allow everyone to use REV boxes. It really pisses me off when I lose a race at Bridgeport cause someone is running a REV box and no one knows how to check them. I agree with Rick, this issue has to fixed before it gets out of hand. :mad:

Not questioning anyones integrity here, however the possibility clearly exists these days, and some boxes have been modified in this manner already for speedweek according to some pit-side chatter(maybe all gears limiters not just a few gears, not sure, doesn't really matter) I felt that the racing community needed to be aware (in a public form, not just chatter in the pits) of what the possibilities are so that the rules committees, tech people and tracks can deal with that possibilty in the correct manner to be fair to all teams/racers (whether that be adjusting tech or allowing anyone to run any box they want) I am personally opposed to rev boxes, but if this can't be tested in a full-proof manner they may be the way to go to make it a level playing field.:confused:

To get all thoughts in one place on this subject I am going to merge the two threads on this subject into one in the U6SA forum.

I appreciate you bringing this subject up. Obviously it's a big concern for everyone involved, especially when the technology reaches many others' hands. Since you've been so involved with Bridgeport and Airport, perhaps you would like to volunteer as an additional representative for those tracks in the upcoming U6SA meeting. When's a good time for Don to reach you Monday?

He can call any time 9am-9pm if I miss the call leave me a message and I will get back to ya. I would represent one track or the other if the racers are interested in me serving as their representative.

Well, you can't really tech gears. One tooth isn't a dead giveaway, plus now add in fooling around with racing in 2nd, 4th etc...

Not safe to tech race gear with wheels off the ground. chain is loose and if the car falls off the jack...(OUCH)

Absolutely not feasible to have an interface box for all combos.

not to mention, there is a way to wire a redundant system where at the flip of a switch, its a whole different eprom.

I guess its racer beware. Maybe we should just all take an oath of morality concerning the rules...(do you trust everyone YOU race with?)

I've been waiting to see a topic like this for awhile, I really dont think the rev boxes are the problem. The problem is people taking the engine apart and building them. The engine that is in my car had a rev box attached to it for 30 races without ever being opened up or rebuilt (straight off the bike) and it is still running strong now. There are still people blowing up every other week, one two car team i know blew up 3 engines in 2 weeks. Stock engines should be the rule. No messing with the valves or rods or head or high compression head gasket. Everything should be left alone.

For Hondas, What we've done in the 600 mods is a suprise ''on the spot'' ecu exchange...in other words at the drivers meeting before a race the series president tells everyone to bring their boxes to him immediately then they are assigned a number and thrown into a box...all documented (car # etc) ...once all boxes are in, everyone randomly grabs a box and puts it inot their car. Knowing they should be stock... it keeps the Honda guys honest (including myself)...The Suzuki's apparently have a ''zero'' device that plugs right into the ecu while on the car...just my input...Good luck racing everyone ! ''Geezer''

hunter racing 7h i have been watching results at many tracks and have talked to many people and i have not seen many people dominate at any track do you feel someone is cheating at your track with your statement about become angry from losing a race from a car with illeagal parts i am just curious on how the rules have been enforced across the region

What about everyone running a tell tale tach that the driver cannot reach to reset and that would be teched post race ..... nothing to recall after .... DQ.

Just my .02 ..... Jimmy

NYMM Series to change rev limits

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The NYMM Series has had an ongoing investigation for the past 3 months on the ability to alter the stock rev limit without detection. As of 8/15/8 the NYMM Series will be reverting back to an open rev box rule. We have had many in depth discussions with several motor builders and several members of the American Motorcycle Association (AMA Superbike) tech department. It is obvious that with the current advancements in computer technology, we are not capable of policing the stock rev limit. For many years the AMA tried to police this issue, just as the modified midget world is doing today. After years of trying, the AMA simply adopted a rule to ‘tag and seal’ a stock box onto the rider’s bike. Unfortunately with all the different ECU configurations in our methanol powered sport, this is not financially feasible.

We have found many types of altered boxes out there. We can purchase an ECU that can be remotely changed from stock to +1000 rpm. There are systems that have a switch that can be mounted under the dash and systems that put out a stock rev limit in neutral and in gear the rev limit is raised. This technology is not new to the motorcycle world, just to the modified midget world. There are companies here in the states that are trying to create a device to regulate these issues. It must be not only an accurate method, but also safe.

It is unfortunate that this has happened, but it was only a matter of time before the envelope was pushed. The rule was put in place not only to help the life of the motors, but to try and level the playing field. At this time we would be hurting the honest racer if we kept the rev limit stock.

Would mandating the removal of the speed sensor work to help elinminate this issue. I believe the ECU needs this sensor to know what gear you are in? Is this correct?

Just a thought!
Jan

Well, you can't really tech gears. One tooth isn't a dead giveaway, plus now add in fooling around with racing in 2nd, 4th etc...

Not safe to tech race gear with wheels off the ground. chain is loose and if the car falls off the jack...(OUCH)

Yea not a good idea to jack it up. but couldn't we take the chain off? alot of people take the chain off every weekend to service the chain anyway. take the chain off and test every gear but there are still the boxes that you can switch from one rev limit to another. idk how to test that one besides look at all of the boxes and follow all of the wires up.

good to see everyone talking about this, and in a positive manner, be sure to talk to your U6SA rep so he knows what to tell the committee. i like the fact that things/information is more readily the racers so they truly know whats going on

I have just received a program this week for my computer that samples the rpm sound a engine makes and is supposed to be accurate by 1 rpm. It is used to calibrate Tachs. I am going to test it soon. With this technology we are supposed to be able to sit by the track and sample each car as they go by. If this works it will be impossible to run a higher rpm.....

jason does it work from picking up the exhaust tone? there are alot of different exhaust tones for different header and muffler combinations.

jason does it work from picking up the exhaust tone? there are alot of different exhaust tones for different header and muffler combinations.

It is the same technology that F1 teams have been using to determine rpms ran at certain parts of tracks by other teams. F1 teams run different engine manufacturers and different exhaust systems. I do have a working copy of the software in my possession and we will be looking into developing this farther as our budget and time allows in the future. At the present time Jason and I are very very busy with some other projects.

If we do manage get a complete field usable system together it will need to be tested over a long period by myself in the enviorment of oval racing before I would even think about using it as a tech aid in any series. So at this point I would say that this is not a near future solution for the issue facing the 600 micros. I have however tested it in a controlled environment with some borrowed hardware and was very impressed.

Keeping it simple and agreeing with Jimmy, I was speaking with Kysor Boys Racing over the weekend and they both have the same idea. A tell tale tach is the simple answer to this potencial problem. When a car comes in off the track it passes across the scales. At the same time the scale tech attendant can also press the tell tail on the tach and record the highest RPM's used during the race. If the driver has reset the tach ahead of time the car is DQ. If there is no reading on the tach the car is DQ. If while waiting in line to pass the scales the driver revs the motor up high the car is DQ.

Basically using the tech proceedures that is already in place can be expanded to include all cars to have a tach on board. Use the rule to monitor the actual revs a car is reaching on the track no matter what gear was used. I would gladly spend the money on the required tach model to be in my car to comply with the rules and to help keep everyone on the same playing field before going back to allowing rev boxes again.......:)

I missed a gear a few months ago in my R1 Yamaha and it showed over 14,800 rpm. The "listed" rev limit for a R1 is 13,600.

I constantly have between 13,800 and 13,960 on the tach.

How will a tell tale help tech when used at the scales after a race ?

The tach is a great idea, but if the box is reformatted to show 1000 = 0 rpm it doesn't do much good. No matter what you do with it, technology will always create a new mousetrap.

This should not be a discussion, the rules state NO MODIFIED ECU. In my mind that means not hooking up a cable to adjust anything in the ECU.

Thats great for the honest people, but these boxes don't need anything hooked up to them to cheat. That's the issue some people don't understand. These boxes are undetectable, no cords, no wires, no way of teching. They don't need anything to the naked eye to cheat. Most of them are done inside the ECU and program reformating.

stock box would be great but it dosent solve the problem i think just open it back up to the rev boxes enough research is done as to a good limit would be set not to blow motors and the boxes are a one time by anyone realy see them go bad?

Cobra, your R1 on board system may be reading correctly or it may not. But I am sure you can miss a shift and reach those levels of RPMs, But here is the hook. The cheaters can learn how to alter the ECU to reach and read any level of RPM that they want, but if we use a required sealed tach mandated by the tules on board by manufacturer etc. it does not have to use any information coming from rhe ECU to read the RPM's reached during the race. There are tachs avaiable for motorcyble engines that read the RPMs directly from the spark plugs and the ignition pulse. A sealed unit like this on the car with a tell tale cannot be messed with. You just simply eliminate using the ECU to read any RPMs from the motor.
Moose I agree 100%,with you, the rule is the rule. no messing with the ECU.

only way for that to happen is to be back on gas. you HAVE to have a box of some sort to tune for alcohol.

If it's so easy to change the ecu, why doesn't the tech man hook up the ecu to a lap top to see where it's at after the race? Is it just the Kawi that can do this and do they change it from a lap top?

Ney Nick!
Its not easy to change the ECU, however people can. Often the tech people don't have that level of expertise. Thats why the rules committee needs to work on the right way to deal with this.
Also it can be done to various ECUS not just one engine.
A PC or a laptop is used with a programming cable and interface to change the ECU's.
The trick here is to reliably check the rev limit. Like many people have made suggestions regarding.
See ya next Friday Nick, talk to me then, rain beat us tonight.

Aparently there is atleast one person who can break into the code of the ECU and alter it. It is not easy to learn.
Moose

Nobody really seemed to answer Jans question... Why cant we just get rid of the speed sensor plug so there is nowhere to plug it in? If we can eliminate this over rev in a gear thing thats one step closer. But we still have to get the tracks to tech.. I found it funny at a drivers meeting recently at track "XXX" they said they were going to tech for revs in race gear and sure enough about 3 or 4 cars hoods all of a sudden came off before warmups. However, nothing was ever teched. Perhaps we can all go to a stock box thats somehow sealed or something and kept at the racetrack and given out randomly as we sign in like transponders? I mean if we all just turn in a stock ecu at the track we are going to race at all year they can be checked and numbered to keep it fair? not very economical but at this point what is?!

Well for one, throw in different make and year ecus and you are well over a dozen. Now throw in that EVERYONE would have to run on gas. You can't run an un-modified ECU with alcohol. Only option is to tell everybody they HAVE to run a power commander. Sorry, but I like my kawi racing ECU just fine.

Not too mention, what if the 'track' ecu went up on me in the middle of the race. How fair is it that? And what would stop someone from hacking the ECU's in their pits?

you DONT have to run a power commander with your stock ecu on alky..... ive been running the last 3 weeks at path with a stock 04 with stock ecu stock rev limit and no power commander and we've been fairly competitive despite stupid shit knocking us out of races. All we did was bumped up the fuel pressure a few pounds.

and ofcourse all you guys that spent the money on your high dollar spar motors (no offense scott) and your rev boxes dont want to see this actually go to completely stock rev limit with stock boxes because that would take away your ability to over rev in race gear.

We initialy went with the stock box idea with the NYMM Series at the begining of the season. After we learned of these cheater boxes early in the season we debated back and forth on allowing the rev boxes again or keeping it the same.

As I said, if the AMA can not tech for all of these cheater boxes, I am waiting for a system that will. They simply make you pay an extra set amount of $$$ in their registration which pays for a stock box. It is then sealed and zip tied with a couple numeric tag seals that does not allow someone to plug a computer into the box, nor open the box. Any cut wires, spliced wires, or rewiring of anykind without the approval of the AMA to an near the box results in DQ.

I am all for Guhls GUTS system and I look forward to seeing it work. However I do feel that someone will find another way around it within a few weeks or months. A sealed/secure box is about the only way to really stop it.

We've also tossed around the idea of a "claimer" rule of sorts. Suspect someone of having one? Put up the $75 or so bucks and have your track/series buy a stock box, have the track/series put it on the car, tag it and seal it. Now some of these guys with the $500 hot box's that had them turned down to stock RPM's...sorry but we're not buying you a $500 race box.

Tossing boxes into a bucket is a great idea if, as HyperMotive said, they were all the same.

Our drivers pretty much said "oh well who cares" when it came down to allowing/dissallowing the box. If someone wants to win a race/championship cheating, that's on them. We are going to revisit this at the end of the year with the tracks here in NY and come up with some sort of rule package for us up here.

ive been running the last 3 weeks at path with a stock 04 with stock ecu stock rev limit and no power commander and we've been fairly competitive despite stupid shit knocking us out of races. All we did was bumped up the fuel pressure a few pounds.

HUH? Thats just a silly thing to do. It's like putting E85 ethanol in a gasoline car. Sure, it'll run, but at some point in time, it will burn up from being lean...


and ofcourse all you guys that spent the money on your high dollar spar motors (no offense scott) and your rev boxes dont want to see this actually go to completely stock rev limit with stock boxes because that would take away your ability to over rev in race gear.

I could honestly care less about the rev limit. if it was higher, we'd prolly still run stock. We already tanked one engine, bone stock, stock RPM. No need to play with fire. We've already seen that a properly set-up car more than makes up for a couple horses in a given situation.

Lets all go back to F3's on carbs, that'll take the rest of the fun out of it....

As I said, if the AMA can not tech for all of these cheater boxes, I am waiting for a system that will. They simply make you pay an extra set amount of $$$ in their registration which pays for a stock box. It is then sealed and zip tied with a couple numeric tag seals that does not allow someone to plug a computer into the box, nor open the box. Any cut wires, spliced wires, or rewiring of anykind without the approval of the AMA to an near the box results in DQ.

And this box has to be plugged into the car harness to work... And if a computer could be tapped into the wiring harness of the car...Then it could still be hacked...

I now know why the sprint car world has cut the technology advancement of the fuel systems to the 1970's...