saturday was the first time this new car has been on a track. from the time the car hit the track to the end of the night the car was almost perfect, we only made very small changes to keep up with the track. the track condition was dry slick for the most part an we actually had to free the car up for the feature. out of all the different chassis' i have run in the past this car by FAR had the most forward and side bite i have ever felt. the only down fall of the night is by our own fault, we tried playing the weight game with fuel and came up 2 laps short of winning but was still able to hang on for a 5th place.

i would like to thank Mike "PJ" Pjatikin for letting me run the car and also Factor 1 Racing, Performance Plus, Engler Injection...which was PERFECT all night. that is with out a doubt the best fuel system i have ever used, no matter what rpm range i was at if i had to lift an get back into it, the response could not have been any better, not once did it stumble or hesitate like i have felt with EFI (an yes EFI with a fresh off the dyno map)

No doubt this car was a Rocket. Car was fast from the time they fired it up. Tim Engler knows injection. You guys did a great job! Congrats on your run

No doubt this car was a Rocket. Car was fast from the time they fired it up. Tim Engler knows injection. You guys did a great job! Congrats on your run


Thanks....looking forward to tinkering some more to see what else we can get out of it.... I'll give you a call tomorrow about your stuff...pretty interesting concepts... hope you do well with it

saturday was the first time this new car has been on a track. from the time the car hit the track to the end of the night the car was almost perfect, we only made very small changes to keep up with the track. the track condition was dry slick for the most part an we actually had to free the car up for the feature. out of all the different chassis' i have run in the past this car by FAR had the most forward and side bite i have ever felt. the only down fall of the night is by our own fault, we tried playing the weight game with fuel and came up 2 laps short of winning but was still able to hang on for a 5th place.

i would like to thank Mike "PJ" Pjatikin for letting me run the car and also Factor 1 Racing, Performance Plus, Engler Injection...which was PERFECT all night. that is with out a doubt the best fuel system i have ever used, no matter what rpm range i was at if i had to lift an get back into it, the response could not have been any better, not once did it stumble or hesitate like i have felt with EFI (an yes EFI with a fresh off the dyno map)

here's videos son....:D
heat
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SABzv3_3rF8&feature=player_embedded



main
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lOWFbmHef8&feature=player_embedded


BTW---you did a good job.....maybe next time I'll buy you a soda and hot dog for your efforts

Glad everything worked well for you guys. Proud to have you using our products.

Garrett Andrews
Competition Suspension
www.csishocks.com

Glad everything worked well for you guys. Proud to have you using our products.

Garrett Andrews
Competition Suspension
www.csishocks.com

Thanks Garrett.... they seemed to work just as expected

Performance Plus, Engler Injection...which was PERFECT all night. that is with out a doubt the best fuel system i have ever used, no matter what rpm range i was at if i had to lift an get back into it, the response could not have been any better, not once did it stumble or hesitate like i have felt with EFI (an yes EFI with a fresh off the dyno map)

Lets see it :)

Lets see it :)

Here you go

car looks real good..... have close ups of Mr. Englers work? Its not meant to be top secret correct? :)

car looks real good..... have close ups of Mr. Englers work? Its not meant to be top secret correct? :)

not at all and I hope you change your thinking about me trying to make it that(only going by your comments:p) feel free to let the questions rip


812-386-6254 Engler Machine -----Tim Engler

While I personally wont get into any debates about EFI vs MFI. I will say that Mr Engler makes a heluva product as we are very familiar with his sprint car injection systems. Top notch.

have a pic of the nozzles by chance? how long are they?

While I personally wont get into any debates about EFI vs MFI. I will say that Mr Engler makes a heluva product as we are very familiar with his sprint car injection systems. Top notch.

exactly why people need choices .....some like vanilla some like chocolate

Error .. ....

have a pic of the nozzles by chance? how long are they?


no I don't....you can call Engler on that ....btw whose efi are you running

hyper injection

hyper injection

cool....mike's stuff is good had it on my brothers car last year.....seems to be the most trouble free of the efi systems out there

Thanks....looking forward to tinkering some more to see what else we can get out of it.... I'll give you a call tomorrow about your stuff...pretty interesting concepts... hope you do well with it

Thanks Mike , I'm looking forward to talking to you about our componants. We have a saying its win, break or flip.

Thats a real nice looking car.Shame about the fuel issue.I've been watching some of those components come up thru development.Truly some interesting stuff.

Thats a real nice looking car.Shame about the fuel issue.I've been watching some of those components come up thru development.Truly some interesting stuff.


Thanks ...... Hopefully the fuel issue will go away in the fall when the drivers of the 600 class get to vote on it...

I think the fuel issue he is referring to is the one regarding the Lack of fuel. LOL
Looks good michael.

are there any restrictions on MFI for the 600s? can anyone run that custom MFI on their 600?

are there any restrictions on MFI for the 600s? can anyone run that custom MFI on their 600?

The MFI as shipped from Engler is illegal under U6SA rules at the present time. See http://www.microracing.com/forum/showthread.php?t=20131

are there any restrictions on MFI for the 600s? can anyone run that custom MFI on their 600?


It will be voted on this fall.... so there are no gray areas and issues like we are having ... and anyone can buy this system from me.... no top secret custom or one off stuff here....

I think the fuel issue he is referring to is the one regarding the Lack of fuel. LOL
Looks good michael.

ya know rick you would be correct lol

yea hopefully it will be voted to allow this system. if it is a s simple as you say, it sounds great. all i really want is to have my name machined on the throttle bodies like you have mike...haha. that looks sweeeet

yea hopefully it will be voted to allow this system. if it is a s simple as you say, it sounds great. all i really want is to have my name machined on the throttle bodies like you have mike...haha. that looks sweeeet


LOL.... well we ran it last night at practice and it was flawless again but I like to tinker and wanted to lean it down but ended up going back to original setting.... gotta control my OCD ... We can put anything you want on there..... :D Englers customer service is 110%

Stock Throttle Body's . Are the Engler Throttle Body's Stock or did you modify them ? . The reason I ask is it doesn't say you must use the Stock Throttle body's off that piticular Engine you are using . Or , It doesn't say "no aftermarket Fuel Injection Systems are allowed PERIOD does it ? . It says you have to use the Stock ECU . It also says you have an RPM limit . Those EFI systems are modifyed to the hilt . They are " Not Stock Fuel Maps " They have Power Commanders " Special Air Boxes " "More Injectors than the factory setup has " "bigger fuel rails " You could say all this is because ( we converted to Menthonal ) I say it improves Preformance . Oh yes it's all Legal to . Moving the Air Box , because it won't fit is one thing but these Billit High preformance ram air boxes are just an excuse and cost money . My point is not to argue but when these things were introduced I doubt they were pre approved before use . These systems were developed over time and flooded onto the market . Since most people have all these EFI things , does anyone think the MFI will get a fair vote ? We ran MfI in NYS long before EFI came along . I say it should be user discression and Grandfathered in . Just my thoughts guys . I do understand why some wouldn't want whichever system . So have fun with this "RANT"

Both systems have advantages and disadvantages .

There is no question in the rules. Mike asked for a ruling and got one. Just not what he wanted to hear.

I like the system. And had I seen it before the last thread blew up, I would have had a different outlook. I can see why it was ruled as stock TB's, otherwise, you can make long runners and gain an advantage. I'm sure there will be alot of stipulations if it is allowed...

hypermotive you crack me up
yesterday you were all
interested wanting pics and nozzle sizes now you are against it obviously you have other motives .....



chat later ... out on the road bring your ride to airport paying an extra 250 plus a free powdercoat job

Hang on PJ...pay attention to who you are talking to

Hang on PJ...pay attention to who you are talking to

my mistake all thought you were on the same team?

hypermotive you crack me up
yesterday you were all
interested wanting pics and nozzle sizes now you are against it obviously you have other motives .....



chat later ... out on the road bring your ride to airport paying an extra 250 plus a free powdercoat job

:confused:

In the other thread about the rules, I did question your motives and 'hiding' of information. Now that you have posted pics and info on what you are doing, it has taken a different turn. Thats what I was asking for initially. Saying it looks nice isn't saying that i'm against it, I was never against it, but didn't agree with how you were coming across. just wanted to see what you had (or were hiding)...

my mistake all thought you were on the same team?

Yes, but we don't share the same mind... :)

my mistake all thought you were on the same team?

yessir we are.... thats why we do well. we think things on all angles ;)

but apparently we do the same thing while at work :D

but apparently we do the same thing while at work :D

lol well its good to have a team that thinks alike....

There is no question in the rules. Mike asked for a ruling and got one. Just not what he wanted to hear.

I like the system. And had I seen it before the last thread blew up, I would have had a different outlook. I can see why it was ruled as stock TB's, otherwise, you can make long runners and gain an advantage. I'm sure there will be alot of stipulations if it is allowed...


Last time I will clarify this..... mike and glenn did give a ruling---if you wanna call it vague go ahead.... and it was "YOU CAN RUN MFI IF YOU HAVE FACTORY ELECTRICS"...... only later on(after I spent $$$) was it made more precise to have stock throttle bodies even though the rules state that in regards to "FACTORY " fuel injection.... not MFI..... they obviously have the power to say and do what they want which is fine and again I will go through the proper channels this fall so there is no "ISSUES" and hopefully it passes and other people can realize the simplicty of this system.


To this day I doubt when you ask someone about MFI they don't know that it's one complete system not PARTMFI and PART EFI....thats just to unrealistic

I can and will have a set of MFI using stock throttle bodies as per todays rules if I need to come next year ....... but two things will occur, one it will cost me even more money(thus hurting the racers pocket which seems to be the biggest gripe) and two... there will be someone else who crys foul about it in some form.......


I am done with this subject.. we are running it ....I spent the money to experiment so all you other racers don't have to....take some free advice or move on don't cry cheerlead or b#$ch....it's simple..it runs great..... you should buy a set....aside from that I m here to have fun not cry over spilled milk.... Have a fantastic day everyone....
:p

:confused:

In the other thread about the rules, I did question your motives and 'hiding' of information. Now that you have posted pics and info on what you are doing, it has taken a different turn. Thats what I was asking for initially. Saying it looks nice isn't saying that i'm against it, I was never against it, but didn't agree with how you were coming across. just wanted to see what you had (or were hiding)...

I apologize if I came across in a different manner wasn't my intention..... guess I was angry with how things were clarified after I purchased it....that's all.... problem solved

so....never been to airport. What are the local rules we'd have to abide by to play in your sandbox?

so....never been to airport. What are the local rules we'd have to abide by to play in your sandbox?

come as you are brotha... and it's been slick so HP isn't gonna win the race :eek:

edit....it's small no highway gear like trailways lol

if airport speedway is a U6SA track how can they allow this injection to be allowed to compete. i'm not for or against the injection ( don't know enough about it) just asking. If it is in fact against the rules as currently adopted and airport has voted to adopt the rules as written then what is the penalty? Like it or not most people including the tracks weree looking for a unified body to take up the cause of keeping the 600 class viable and as affordable as this class can be for someone. This is only going to work if Everyone abides by the rules as set forth and voted on by everyone in the organization!!!! Why even participate or have any kind of governing body if at the end of the day some of the tracks just pay lip service to the cause?

I guess because they saw from an unbiased view how it was changed after the fact..... just like them flywheels ...... and what does U6SA provide for the tracks anyway besides rules ? I can see the crying won't stop .....

Why can't people just do what they want to do, some people want to be different for whatever reason. MFI was used for years before EFI came out, now all of a sudden it is illegal. I think somebody was correct when they stated the u6sa was created by buisiness for the buisiness. Why make somebody spend extra money for a EFI system if they would rather spend money on something that fits there budget? If you guys think long runners are an advantage then put them on your EFI system, And what are the rules for running a 4 into 1 manifold wth a single throttle body?

How much for a system?

if airport speedway is a U6SA track how can they allow this injection to be allowed to compete. i'm not for or against the injection ( don't know enough about it) just asking. If it is in fact against the rules as currently adopted and airport has voted to adopt the rules as written then what is the penalty? Like it or not most people including the tracks weree looking for a unified body to take up the cause of keeping the 600 class viable and as affordable as this class can be for someone. This is only going to work if Everyone abides by the rules as set forth and voted on by everyone in the organization!!!! Why even participate or have any kind of governing body if at the end of the day some of the tracks just pay lip service to the cause?

Wayne , I have a question . If you adopt u6sa rules at a given track , is every race a u6sa race ? It might sound stupid but i couldn't find that about track sanctions . Also I think Airport has allowed FI for many years at their track .(as a general term) So are you saying u6sa rules superseed a given tracks rules ? I understand u6sa wants to keep the 600 prices in check but the MFI system cost less than a Modifyed 600 EFI system . So outside of this being a hot button topic , Mfi is affordable . I do agree if the u6sa rules apply for every race a track should abide by those rules though . Otherwise what would be the point . Thanks .

In the other post on the MFI it was questioned why run it but for no other reason than the advantage of the longer intake runners. That would be the reason I would buy it.

If you have the 07 guhl injection why would you want the 08 guhl injection with adjustable stacks = advantage. If you have a single injection system why would you want the double injector set up = advantage. If you have a carburated engine why would you want an injected engine = advantage. If you have an airbox why would you want the ram air box = advantage. If you have a tire that has two races on it why put on a brand new one = advantage.

Everything that we do is to get the advantage. Nothing hiding just understood.

As for PJ 91, he may have chose MFI for reasons other than the advantage. But he went with a Factor1 because of the Unfair Advantage:p


We are having fun now.

the U6SA isn't a sanctioning body. it's a group of drivers/promoters/track owners/ businessmen that all have one thing in common. the strength of the 600 class. All the tracks have thought it important enough to have representation at the meetings. and important enough to raise their hands when it comes time to vote. The U6SA in it's current form is a paper organization. All you guys cry for rules and tech and make it less expensive to race as long as it fits your needs that is. the same for the tracks jsut like the bladders getting rammed up our ass under the guise of safety. Most of the tracks were going to require it for insurance? really? your insurance guy didn't have a problem with no ambulance? safety workers in T- shirts? half your lights being blown out? bleachers falling down? steel guardrail sticking out? chicken wire catch fence? if you have a catch fence. but i had to have a bladder because they said so. It's not about pissing and moaning about a mechanical injection Airport voted to adopt these rules as written. Airport also voted to appoint a rules clarification committee head and to direct this head to form a commitee for the sole purpose of dealing with "gray " areas. you can't have it both ways either you are in or you are out. I will make a motion at the fall meeting that if a track or organization does not follow the rules adopted by the U6SA membership then that track or organization will not be represented at the annual meeting and will not have a vote. This mechanical injection is just a small part of a much bigger problem

I may be wrong but i don't think Airport enforces the bladder rule either.
Mike could tell us, he is the U6SA Rep for Airport.
Mike?

I may be wrong but i don't think Airport enforces the bladder rule either.
Mike could tell us, he is the U6SA Rep for Airport.
Mike?

no they have not....

As for PJ 91, he may have chose MFI for reasons other than the advantage. But he went with a Factor1 because of the Unfair Advantage:p


We are having fun now.

LMAO!:D always have fun

In the other post on the MFI it was questioned why run it but for no other reason than the advantage of the longer intake runners. That would be the reason I would buy it.

If you have the 07 guhl injection why would you want the 08 guhl injection with adjustable stacks = advantage. If you have a single injection system why would you want the double injector set up = advantage. If you have a carburated engine why would you want an injected engine = advantage. If you have an airbox why would you want the ram air box = advantage. If you have a tire that has two races on it why put on a brand new one = advantage.

Everything that we do is to get the advantage. Nothing hiding just understood.

well there are many reasons to buy and I guess one guy who doesnt even own a system made that comment about runners.... I don't see any gains by the runner which is being dramatized.... you efi guys have tried it (i heard that so not gospel) and it didnt work..... bottom line is they come with what they come with.... WOULD YOU GUYS LIKE ME TO PUT STOCK THROTTLE BODIES WITH MY NOZZLES IN EM ON TOP OF THE RUNNERS? CAUSE BY THE RULES FOR THIS YEAR FOR MFI I CAN DO THAT TOO OR ARE WE GOING TO HAVE YET ANOTHER RULE CLARIFICATION PARTY LOL I CAN GO ALL DAY....

the U6SA isn't a sanctioning body. it's a group of drivers/promoters/track owners/ businessmen that all have one thing in common. the strength of the 600 class. All the tracks have thought it important enough to have representation at the meetings. and important enough to raise their hands when it comes time to vote. The U6SA in it's current form is a paper organization. All you guys cry for rules and tech and make it less expensive to race as long as it fits your needs that is. the same for the tracks jsut like the bladders getting rammed up our ass under the guise of safety. Most of the tracks were going to require it for insurance? really? your insurance guy didn't have a problem with no ambulance? safety workers in T- shirts? half your lights being blown out? bleachers falling down? steel guardrail sticking out? chicken wire catch fence? if you have a catch fence. but i had to have a bladder because they said so. It's not about pissing and moaning about a mechanical injection Airport voted to adopt these rules as written. Airport also voted to appoint a rules clarification committee head and to direct this head to form a commitee for the sole purpose of dealing with "gray " areas. you can't have it both ways either you are in or you are out. I will make a motion at the fall meeting that if a track or organization does not follow the rules adopted by the U6SA membership then that track or organization will not be represented at the annual meeting and will not have a vote. This mechanical injection is just a small part of a much bigger problem

THERE WERE NO RULES ABOUT MFI! JUST LIKE THE LIGHTENED FLYWHEEL


two things.... wayne correct me if I am wrong please... but aren't you always stating to run very simple open rules? Which BTW I am for as well, the other is you complain about driving cost up and keeping it affordable.... who said racing was cheap? Don't you have a top of the line hyper with all the bells and whistles? People who are concerned about money shouldn't be racing....PRIORITIES....it's a luxury not a necessity..I would like to own a 410 car but I CANNOT afford to...at least thats the way I see it.... and I do agree that there are way more things then one rule about injection to be dealt with

p.s. you seemed to be the biggest advocate of not changing rules mid season.....

http://www.microracing.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10743&highlight=lightened+flywheel&page=18


what happened? or are you only in that mode because you were a participating flywheel member:D:D

there are sooo many good contradicting comments from a lot of you cheerleaders on the flywheel page ...it could actually get comical when i decide to waste my time and post them....

for the life of me I cannot figure out how one car has created this many pages.... and guess what? its really the car you guys should be concerned with not the motor or injection.... crap pull a plug off when its dry slick which is mainly how it is..because HP ain't winning that race. :eek:

good luck to you and ryan this weekend wayne and everyone else too.. Be safe ... I am holding a memorial race at airport for my friend pete frazier who died 10 years ago in a 600... so lets be thankful we have life and appreciate it instead of bashing about dumb stuff

I have a new idea..... anyone who had a lightened flywheel last year should not say anything about this issue..... because the big gray boulders will break the glass house in a second.....:eek:

The U6SA was adopted for the tracks and racers. So you can go to ANY track that ABIDES by the rules and rulings and have an even playing field. Alot like the Universal rules of old.

How can you have a track that admittely does not follow the rules they adopted? Also, how can you have a class rep that admittely does not follow the rules? This is totally outside what the scope for the U6SA was founded on. Its back to the old days of tracks doing what they want! You choose not to utilize the rules set forth, fine. Then don't advertise that you do!

And Mike, don't take this as a personal attack, even though I'm pretty sure you will. I am all for trying new things. We are racing 600's because we have experience with it and can't (under)stand carbs. But as a class rep, you should be the example, not the exception. JMHO, fire away...

I have a new idea..... anyone who had a lightened flywheel last year should not say anything about this issue..... because the big gray boulders will break the glass house in a second.....:eek:

That would take out most of these replys. At that point you could go back to discussing how great the car looked and how fast it is. Wheel Man also did a great job.

That would take out most of these replys. At that point you could go back to discussing how great the car looked and how fast it is. Wheel Man also did a great job.


Exactly.... Jack is one heck of a wheel man

in the other post on the mfi it was questioned why run it but for no other reason than the advantage of the longer intake runners. That would be the reason i would buy it.

If you have the 07 guhl injection why would you want the 08 guhl injection with adjustable stacks = advantage. If you have a single injection system why would you want the double injector set up = advantage. If you have a carburated engine why would you want an injected engine = advantage. If you have an airbox why would you want the ram air box = advantage. If you have a tire that has two races on it why put on a brand new one = advantage.

Everything that we do is to get the advantage. Nothing hiding just understood.

Well said....

The U6SA was adopted for the tracks and racers. So you can go to ANY track that ABIDES by the rules and rulings and have an even playing field. Alot like the Universal rules of old.

How can you have a track that admittely does not follow the rules they adopted? Also, how can you have a class rep that admittely does not follow the rules? This is totally outside what the scope for the U6SA was founded on. Its back to the old days of tracks doing what they want! You choose not to utilize the rules set forth, fine. Then don't advertise that you do!

And Mike, don't take this as a personal attack, even though I'm pretty sure you will. I am all for trying new things. We are racing 600's because we have experience with it and can't (under)stand carbs. But as a class rep, you should be the example, not the exception. JMHO, fire away...

If you still want to try to paint a picture based on the rules that were clarified after I purchased the system to me or Airport look bad go ahead I can't stop you...

As far as the class rep thing..(which I may add I stepped in at the very last minute) I would call it like it I see it for you or anyone else that is in my situation.... It wasn't in the rules.... I would never turn away someone who followed the rules and the mid season the"group" clarified him away.... of course it benefits me and I am the track rep big deal...how does that take away from the situation if anything I am glad that this went down this way because it shows how any rule can be "made" oops I meant clarified to suit the order...

I didn't see anyone clarifying them flywheels out now did I .....They had to wait until the fall.... so why is this any different....?

Maybe you should read that thread and see a lot of the same people and their comments before you start on this one....

We could go back and forth all the day...but hijacking Jack's thread cause people enjoy the drama is a waste of time...this is great advertising though...


btw adam I am racing 600s too because I don't understand efi as much as you dont understand carbs... I ran MFI before you and any of these guys knew what a 600 was...and a track in PA was even running 600's so this is nothing new pic below is from 1996.... running Hilborne MFI... had I not been able to afford EFI would I then be not able to race because of U6SA? Guess so

this is a very interesting subject but it seems that is should be taken to the US6A posting area..... and i would like to hear more about the MFI. good luck with your "crusade" and with the new "revolutionary" car. innovation has made racing the greatest of sports, it has never been a cheap endeaver. i do think we need cooperation and compromises to keep the 600 class healthy and sensible in terms of equipment allowed.... all points of view are important and should be expressed.....

this is a very interesting subject but it seems that is should be taken to the US6A posting area..... and i would like to hear more about the MFI. good luck with your "crusade" and with the new "revolutionary" car. innovation has made racing the greatest of sports, it has never been a cheap endeaver. i do think we need cooperation and compromises to keep the 600 class healthy and sensible in terms of equipment allowed.... all points of view are important and should be expressed.....

well said dan

I dont paint pictures, not that kind of artist. :rolleyes:

Kudos for 'pioneering' mfi in 600's, you are obviously proud of it. but you really shouldn't assume what others may or may not know...

The great flywheel debate is a thing of long ago. The ruling was made, however it came about. There is a different system this year for dealing with questions, the tech committee. This didn't exist last season. Of course the outcome may be different. If I took the time to look back through that thread, would I feel differently about some of the things? Possibly. But I dont live in the past, I gained experience from that and moved on.

I'm just saying that a 'representative' of the U6SA should be an advocate for the rules set forth, whether they agree with them or not.

I dont paint pictures, not that kind of artist. :rolleyes:

Kudos for 'pioneering' mfi in 600's, you are obviously proud of it. but you really shouldn't assume what others may or may not know...

The great flywheel debate is a thing of long ago. The ruling was made, however it came about. There is a different system this year for dealing with questions, the tech committee. This didn't exist last season. Of course the outcome may be different. If I took the time to look back through that thread, would I feel differently about some of the things? Possibly. But I dont live in the past, I gained experience from that and moved on.

I'm just saying that a 'representative' of the U6SA should be an advocate for the rules set forth, whether they agree with them or not.


I am an advocate of the rules..... just not ones that are changed or changed because people didn't realize what an MFI system entailed.... this is a pointless conversation..maybe you should follow your own advice and not assume either..... but you are entitled to your opinion.... Thanks for the interest

Ditto, but not pointless. Lots of good info from all fronts, whether or not you decide to see it. Good luck...

Ditto, but not pointless. Lots of good info from all fronts, whether or not you decide to see it. Good luck...


Thank You....

Lets just make em electric. :D

our golf cart is 48 volts and it sh!ts n g!ts :p

Good luck all and safe racin'!

I dont paint pictures, not that kind of artist. :rolleyes:

Kudos for 'pioneering' mfi in 600's, you are obviously proud of it. but you really shouldn't assume what others may or may not know...

The great flywheel debate is a thing of long ago. The ruling was made, however it came about. There is a different system this year for dealing with questions, the tech committee. This didn't exist last season. Of course the outcome may be different. If I took the time to look back through that thread, would I feel differently about some of the things? Possibly. But I dont live in the past, I gained experience from that and moved on.

I'm just saying that a 'representative' of the U6SA should be an advocate for the rules set forth, whether they agree with them or not.


It's not really" pioneering" per say, PJ and I were running MFI quite successfully way back in the late 90s

Lets just make em electric. :D

our golf cart is 48 volts and it sh!ts n g!ts :p

Good luck all and safe racin'!

Now thats a good one:D

i absolutley am an advocate of open rules. but that isn't going to happen and i am also an advocate of the U6SA even though i don't agree with them all. i am about advocating for the strength of the 600 class and i know if we don't all stand together we will fail. My point with airport is this. if you sit beside me at the fall meeting and raise your hand for or against then you have had your say and your vote was counted and because of that you have an obligation to uphold the rules as passed like them or not. i don't agree with changing rules mid season. what i thought we were voting on with the forming of the commitee was a group to "clarify" the current rules not amend except in the case of the wingless weight rule and the rev limit which had to be clarified

i absolutley am an advocate of open rules. but that isn't going to happen and i am also an advocate of the U6SA even though i don't agree with them all. i am about advocating for the strength of the 600 class and i know if we don't all stand together we will fail. My point with airport is this. if you sit beside me at the fall meeting and raise your hand for or against then you have had your say and your vote was counted and because of that you have an obligation to uphold the rules as passed like them or not. i don't agree with changing rules mid season. what i thought we were voting on with the forming of the commitee was a group to "clarify" the current rules not amend except in the case of the wingless weight rule and the rev limit which had to be clarified

clarify a rule is ok if THERE is a rule pertaining to aftermarket FI (MFI) not "factory fuel injection" read that rule carefully and you will see that there never was a rule to clarify....
wayne ill pm you my number we can discuss this in person...if you like

It's not really" pioneering" per say, PJ and I were running MFI quite successfully way back in the late 90s



Exactly :D

after reading all this BITCHING its really sad that 98% of you think a motor wins a race on a DRY SLICK track!!!!! NEWS FLASH it DOESNT...... does a good running motor help, sure but if you cant get that motor to the ground you are not-will not go any were period!!!

an for those that think your getting more HP from EFI over carbs...GUESS again, carbs put out more HP then any EFI if they are done right....dyno runs dont lie, all the same motor with all 3 systems!!

so when any of you want to pull your head outa your A$$ an say hmmmm maybe after watching the video that car was really working, feel free to come an talk to me about if the CAR or the MOTOR was winning that race!!

now here is another thought, the guy who did end up winning the race started 15th dead last. did any one say one word about him cheating, NO...now if i had done the same thing, i or the car or the MFI would have been banned from the track for cheating some how.

i have been racing at AIRPORT for 17 yrs now so yes i know how to make a car work there!! i jumped in some one else's car a few weeks back and almost won the first night out in that car too, so i must have been cheating in that one too???

Only thing that seems bad about the MFI is the 3495 price tag. I know it takes about 2800 to turn key EFI. But wow. We got to get this under control.

Now if it can go from car to car that may make it worth it. Kinda like carbs will allow many motors under same carbs.

Just my 2 cents. i remeber when MFI was the only thing you could get and it is very reliable!!!!

I remember those old mechanical fuel injection days. We used to run against Nick and Mike at Airport, and Shawn Freeman used to come down from New York to run some of the local shows. The mechanical fuel injection worked great when it was set up correctly, and definitely had its advantages over flat-slide carbs.

Frankly, EFI ran us out of micros. Well, at least it was one of the issues. We didn't like the fact you have little to no control if you want to make a change, or something went wrong. Also, I wasn't thrilled with the notion of dragging my car to the dyno and dropping a couple hundred to get the latest tune. At least with mechanical fuel injection YOU can adjust the system the way want.

Recently, we had a fuel system problem with midget. Fortunately, we were able to reach the engine builder, and he diagnosed the problem over the phone. We fixed the problem with a couple wrenches in time for the heats. We never would have fixed our EFI engine like that.

I believe mechanical injection should be re-introduced to 600 racing. In terms of cost it has to be comparable to EFI after the alky conversion, Power Commander, harness, tune etc.

Only thing that seems bad about the MFI is the 3495 price tag. I know it takes about 2800 to turn key EFI. But wow. We got to get this under control.

Now if it can go from car to car that may make it worth it. Kinda like carbs will allow many motors under same carbs.

Just my 2 cents. i remeber when MFI was the only thing you could get and it is very reliable!!!!

Get what under control? How about we get the high dollar cockpit adjustments under control and leave it to the set up and the driver

Englers aren't cheap and there are other MFI systems that are a lot cheaper as I told you in the PM ..

If you add up the cost of dynoing and tuning everytime you need to(motor change, exhaust change etc) Fuel pumps burning out....sensors going bad oh and did I mention the cost of a rebuild when your injector sticks and burns your motor..... I ll take a few hundred bucks more at the start and being able to tune my own system for free then being at the mercy of a vendor and pay several hundred everytime it needs to be adjusted.... I will say you can get a auto tune but thats another few hundred....

Take a look at the bigger picture instead of focusing on the needle point

only thing that seems bad about the mfi is the 3495 price tag. I know it takes about 2800 to turn key efi. But wow. We got to get this under control.

Now if it can go from car to car that may make it worth it. Kinda like carbs will allow many motors under same carbs.

Just my 2 cents. I remeber when mfi was the only thing you could get and it is very reliable!!!!

as far as know it can go from car to car and motor to motor all you need is one cheap base plate that mounts to your sizing of your head..... Can efi do that ? Nope and fuel pumps are interchangeable with motors so how much is that worth?

I remember those old mechanical fuel injection days. We used to run against Nick and Mike at Airport, and Shawn Freeman used to come down from New York to run some of the local shows. The mechanical fuel injection worked great when it was set up correctly, and definitely had its advantages over flat-slide carbs.

Frankly, EFI ran us out of micros. Well, at least it was one of the issues. We didn't like the fact you have little to no control if you want to make a change, or something went wrong. Also, I wasn't thrilled with the notion of dragging my car to the dyno and dropping a couple hundred to get the latest tune. At least with mechanical fuel injection YOU can adjust the system the way want.

Recently, we had a fuel system problem with midget. Fortunately, we were able to reach the engine builder, and he diagnosed the problem over the phone. We fixed the problem with a couple wrenches in time for the heats. We never would have fixed our EFI engine like that.

I believe mechanical injection should be re-introduced to 600 racing. In terms of cost it has to be comparable to EFI after the alky conversion, Power Commander, harness, tune etc.

Thank you for posting this.... a real world experience with both.... maybe people will begin to realize just how simple it is

Autotune is 150, less than an hour on the dyno. Works great too. Why are you saying you have no control over EFI? I can tune it on the fly and also screw it up just as easy as you can your MFI. Why do we choose EFI? Takes the weather out of the equation...

Autotune is 150, less than an hour on the dyno. Works great too. Why are you saying you have no control over EFI? I can tune it on the fly and also screw it up just as easy as you can your MFI. Why do we choose EFI? Takes the weather out of the equation...

MFI is not that sensitive.... I dynoed my car in Oklahoma... bought it here ran it saturday never touched it.... ran perfect... ran it wednesday... ran perfect

and for the record I did have the latest and greatest EFI.... I couldn't tune it because it was ECU tuned..... I went with a certain company because of their claim to have better performance with moveable stacks----- was too lean to race with and would have burned my motor .....

Last I saw auto tune was $250 on hypers site and you need the pcv to run it (throw the old pc3's in the trash) so theres another $360 and last I heard a dyno run at hyper was $200 plus having someone tig the bung in your exhaust @$100 ... So theres $910. Lets add in fuel for the 16 hour round trip to dyno plus a room for the night im at @$1500. Hyper ram air conversion $1600 ... harness conversion $175 ... deluxe fuel system $1200. HMMMMMM I think im at $4475. Keeping costs down ..... well whats wrong with the original picture. Heres a question .... Why would you allow carbs on a newer injected motor but not allow MFI ???????????????????

Last I saw auto tune was $250 on hypers site and you need the pcv to run it (throw the old pc3's in the trash) so theres another $360 and last I heard a dyno run at hyper was $200 plus having someone tig the bung in your exhaust @$100 ... So theres $910. Lets add in fuel for the 16 hour round trip to dyno plus a room for the night im at @$1500. Hyper ram air conversion $1600 ... harness conversion $175 ... deluxe fuel system $1200. HMMMMMM I think im at $4475. Keeping costs down ..... well whats wrong with the original picture. Heres a question .... Why would you allow carbs on a newer injected motor but not allow MFI ???????????????????

We have a winner!:eek:

Sometimes I wonder how well these EFI systems really are tuned anyways. Seems like most motors won't hardely start without starting fluid when there cold, and especially when it is really cold out. There is alot more to tuning EFI then playing with the VE bins. I wonder how well all the correcions in these systems are tuned, or if you can tune them at all.

I remember those old mechanical fuel injection days. We used to run against Nick and Mike at Airport, and Shawn Freeman used to come down from New York to run some of the local shows. The mechanical fuel injection worked great when it was set up correctly, and definitely had its advantages over flat-slide carbs.

Frankly, EFI ran us out of micros. Well, at least it was one of the issues. We didn't like the fact you have little to no control if you want to make a change, or something went wrong. Also, I wasn't thrilled with the notion of dragging my car to the dyno and dropping a couple hundred to get the latest tune. At least with mechanical fuel injection YOU can adjust the system the way want.

Recently, we had a fuel system problem with midget. Fortunately, we were able to reach the engine builder, and he diagnosed the problem over the phone. We fixed the problem with a couple wrenches in time for the heats. We never would have fixed our EFI engine like that.

I believe mechanical injection should be re-introduced to 600 racing. In terms of cost it has to be comparable to EFI after the alky conversion, Power Commander, harness, tune etc.

F R E E L A N D:D its FREELAND not FREEMAN:Dget it right man.LOL

Autotune is 150, less than an hour on the dyno. Works great too. Why are you saying you have no control over EFI? I can tune it on the fly and also screw it up just as easy as you can your MFI. Why do we choose EFI? Takes the weather out of the equation...

I don't believe Autotune was available when we were running micros. You were pretty much stuck with the map you got from the tuner. If you wanted to change anything you had to load up your car and head to the dyno.

For example, we bought an R6 complete with alky conversion from a builder. We ran this engine for about ten shows towards the end of our last full season in micros. It was very competitive and we were a Top 5 or Top 10 car every night. The next season the 636 became all the rage.

We got caught with our pants down, and were down on power. Plus, the engine just didn't feel sharp. We called a tuner we had known for a while. We towed about three hours to his shop. We all don't live in Lancaster or Dauphin County. The time and expense getting to and from the dyno also has to be taken into account. The tuner told us we had an old map, and he had a much better one. After an hour on the dyno and $200 we gained about 10hp.

Because we had a three hour tow we had plenty of time to talk. Although we were happy with the performance gains we were still down on power compared to the 636s. Also, we were concerned about the possibility of the "map of the week". We could've burned through our budget for the season just tuning the EFI. It was then we decided it was time to move on.

It appears EFI has progressed quite a bit since we jumped ship. Autotune sounds interesting, but it's also something else you need to buy. When does it end? Plus, the fact that new engines come out every year it's an ever moving target.

Autotune is 150, less than an hour on the dyno. Works great too. Why are you saying you have no control over EFI? I can tune it on the fly and also screw it up just as easy as you can your MFI. Why do we choose EFI? Takes the weather out of the equation...

I went over to Hyper's website and found the information regarding Autotune. It sounds promising if you know what you're doing. I guess there's a learning curve just like everything else. Our cousin is still running micros and I'm sure he doesn't know about Autotune. We'll have to look into this. Thanks!

I agree with Wayne on these points however I may have mounted my bladder in the wrong place.:eek:
All you guys cry for rules and tech and make it less expensive to race as long as it fits your needs that is. the same for the tracks jsut like the bladders getting rammed up our ass under the guise of safety. Most of the tracks were going to require it for insurance? really? your insurance guy didn't have a problem with no ambulance? safety workers in T- shirts? half your lights being blown out? bleachers falling down? steel guardrail sticking out? chicken wire catch fence? if you have a catch fence.

F R E E L A N D:D its FREELAND not FREEMAN:Dget it right man.LOL

I couldn't remember if it was Freeland or Freeman so I winged it. :) I remember when you guys used to come down to LANCO. Didn't you design your own system? You really had it flying.

[QUOTE=Evil E;64741]I couldn't remember if it was Freeland or Freeman so I winged it. :) I remember when you guys used to come down to LANCO. Didn't you design your own system? You really had it flying.[/QUOTE/] ................ We didn't design it from the ground up just refined it. It was basically hilborn with some kinsler parts added, worked really good I absolutly loved it ,man I hope it gets the vote for next season. No sweat on the name thing:D

[QUOTE=Evil E;64741]I couldn't remember if it was Freeland or Freeman so I winged it. :) I remember when you guys used to come down to LANCO. Didn't you design your own system? You really had it flying.[/QUOTE/] ................ We didn't design it from the ground up just refined it. It was basically hilborn with some kinsler parts added, worked really good I absolutly loved it ,man I hope it gets the vote for next season. No sweat on the name thing:D


Shawn is it all still together?

[QUOTE=SFM;64743]


Shawn is it all still together?

No not that particular system but the next one is on paper,just waitin for that vote, GOOD LUCK TONIGHT MAN

[QUOTE=PJ 91;64751]

No not that particular system but the next one is on paper,just waitin for that vote, GOOD LUCK TONIGHT MAN

Thanks!

I have remained silent on these debates for many years. The entire country runs a very basic set of rules except for the Pa area. The US6A or whatever they call it has some of the most ridiculous and self serving rules that I have ever seen in any form of racing. The idea of running a "stock" motor that has been designed for one application and put in another is also ridiculous. The US6A rules are far from stock and seem to benefit a select group of vendors and builders. Racing is supposed to be an avenue of competition and innovation,not an activity to line some peoples pockets. In the beginning of running 600's in this area my car owner and I developed our own mechanical injection and it worked very well and the money we spent on it was much less than a set of flat slides or anything else that everyone was running at that time. The motors came from a junk yard and the frame began its life as an old EMC that was purchased for less than a hundred bucks. We also ran a rear in the car. This was far from anything new remember at one time about 90% of all micros were running Ducati's with the transmissions cut off and Crosley rears. You can't buy a "legal" injection system with the total amount of cash that we had in this entire project. Did we have an almost unbelievable amount of time and effort involved building this car? You bet your ass we did. It also was very sucessfull. What happened to this car? The genius mentality of the micro rules makers banned it! For years there was a disdain for chain drive but it had become the norm. Now that the concept of a rear had returned and it was successfull they made it illegal. You now have a field of VERY EXPENSIVE cookie cutter cars and engines,and some very rich vendors. Is this progress? I think not! Mike, congrats on doing something different. The rest of you really need to rethink the situation before its too late.
Doug Labant

I have remained silent on these debates for many years. The entire country runs a very basic set of rules except for the Pa area. The US6A or whatever they call it has some of the most ridiculous and self serving rules that I have ever seen in any form of racing. The idea of running a "stock" motor that has been designed for one application and put in another is also ridiculous. The US6A rules are far from stock and seem to benefit a select group of vendors and builders. Racing is supposed to be an avenue of competition and innovation,not an activity to line some peoples pockets. In the beginning of running 600's in this area my car owner and I developed our own mechanical injection and it worked very well and the money we spent on it was much less than a set of flat slides or anything else that everyone was running at that time. The motors came from a junk yard and the frame began its life as an old EMC that was purchased for less than a hundred bucks. We also ran a rear in the car. This was far from anything new remember at one time about 90% of all micros were running Ducati's with the transmissions cut off and Crosley rears. You can't buy a "legal" injection system with the total amount of cash that we had in this entire project. Did we have an almost unbelievable amount of time and effort involved building this car? You bet your ass we did. It also was very sucessfull. What happened to this car? The genius mentality of the micro rules makers banned it! For years there was a disdain for chain drive but it had become the norm. Now that the concept of a rear had returned and it was successfull they made it illegal. You now have a field of VERY EXPENSIVE cookie cutter cars and engines,and some very rich vendors. Is this progress? I think not! Mike, congrats on doing something different. The rest of you really need to rethink the situation before its too late.
Doug Labant

Hey Doug, you probly don't remember me from limerock ,i remember you when you drove for Mark stallard and came up for An eastern state race,WELL SAID,all we can do is wait on the vote

I have remained silent on these debates for many years. The entire country runs a very basic set of rules except for the Pa area. The US6A or whatever they call it has some of the most ridiculous and self serving rules that I have ever seen in any form of racing. The idea of running a "stock" motor that has been designed for one application and put in another is also ridiculous. The US6A rules are far from stock and seem to benefit a select group of vendors and builders. Racing is supposed to be an avenue of competition and innovation,not an activity to line some peoples pockets. In the beginning of running 600's in this area my car owner and I developed our own mechanical injection and it worked very well and the money we spent on it was much less than a set of flat slides or anything else that everyone was running at that time. The motors came from a junk yard and the frame began its life as an old EMC that was purchased for less than a hundred bucks. We also ran a rear in the car. This was far from anything new remember at one time about 90% of all micros were running Ducati's with the transmissions cut off and Crosley rears. You can't buy a "legal" injection system with the total amount of cash that we had in this entire project. Did we have an almost unbelievable amount of time and effort involved building this car? You bet your ass we did. It also was very sucessfull. What happened to this car? The genius mentality of the micro rules makers banned it! For years there was a disdain for chain drive but it had become the norm. Now that the concept of a rear had returned and it was successfull they made it illegal. You now have a field of VERY EXPENSIVE cookie cutter cars and engines,and some very rich vendors. Is this progress? I think not! Mike, congrats on doing something different. The rest of you really need to rethink the situation before its too late.
Doug Labant

I had to read that again ,THAT IS SO WELL SAID ,EXCELLENT,AN AVENUE OF COMPETITION AND INNOVATION ,that says it all,where is that avenue,anybody know the address

I have remained silent on these debates for many years. The entire country runs a very basic set of rules except for the Pa area. The US6A or whatever they call it has some of the most ridiculous and self serving rules that I have ever seen in any form of racing. The idea of running a "stock" motor that has been designed for one application and put in another is also ridiculous. The US6A rules are far from stock and seem to benefit a select group of vendors and builders. Racing is supposed to be an avenue of competition and innovation,not an activity to line some peoples pockets. In the beginning of running 600's in this area my car owner and I developed our own mechanical injection and it worked very well and the money we spent on it was much less than a set of flat slides or anything else that everyone was running at that time. The motors came from a junk yard and the frame began its life as an old EMC that was purchased for less than a hundred bucks. We also ran a rear in the car. This was far from anything new remember at one time about 90% of all micros were running Ducati's with the transmissions cut off and Crosley rears. You can't buy a "legal" injection system with the total amount of cash that we had in this entire project. Did we have an almost unbelievable amount of time and effort involved building this car? You bet your ass we did. It also was very sucessfull. What happened to this car? The genius mentality of the micro rules makers banned it! For years there was a disdain for chain drive but it had become the norm. Now that the concept of a rear had returned and it was successfull they made it illegal. You now have a field of VERY EXPENSIVE cookie cutter cars and engines,and some very rich vendors. Is this progress? I think not! Mike, congrats on doing something different. The rest of you really need to rethink the situation before its too late.
Doug Labant


great post

I have remained silent on these debates for many years. The entire country runs a very basic set of rules except for the Pa area. The US6A or whatever they call it has some of the most ridiculous and self serving rules that I have ever seen in any form of racing. The idea of running a "stock" motor that has been designed for one application and put in another is also ridiculous. The US6A rules are far from stock and seem to benefit a select group of vendors and builders. Racing is supposed to be an avenue of competition and innovation,not an activity to line some peoples pockets. In the beginning of running 600's in this area my car owner and I developed our own mechanical injection and it worked very well and the money we spent on it was much less than a set of flat slides or anything else that everyone was running at that time. The motors came from a junk yard and the frame began its life as an old EMC that was purchased for less than a hundred bucks. We also ran a rear in the car. This was far from anything new remember at one time about 90% of all micros were running Ducati's with the transmissions cut off and Crosley rears. You can't buy a "legal" injection system with the total amount of cash that we had in this entire project. Did we have an almost unbelievable amount of time and effort involved building this car? You bet your ass we did. It also was very sucessfull. What happened to this car? The genius mentality of the micro rules makers banned it! For years there was a disdain for chain drive but it had become the norm. Now that the concept of a rear had returned and it was successfull they made it illegal. You now have a field of VERY EXPENSIVE cookie cutter cars and engines,and some very rich vendors. Is this progress? I think not! Mike, congrats on doing something different. The rest of you really need to rethink the situation before its too late.
Doug Labant


Thanks Doug, As someone I've respected in the racing community since I started in 1993...I appreciate the compliments that means a lot coming from you... I do remember that drive shaft car it was wild... wish it was still around... I think a lot of these guys get sold a bill of good that nothing else is around and they are stuck with what the general population is running no matter the dollar... I hope things work out where a guy can make his own system and spend a few hundred.......and enjoy racing without the political issues

The rules that have come out of the U6SA were voted on by a group of people that represent a cross section of the microsprint industry. there are just as many driver reps and track reps ( if not more) as there are manufacture reps. you guys wanted rules you got them!!! i will say again i am for an open rule, or at least a common sense rule package. The fact of the matter is the drivers and tracks ( especially) asked for this body. at the annual meeting the room is filled with reps from all the tracks and driver reps from all the tracks. everyone votes the votes are counted and a rule or procedure is adopted or it is not. it's part of the democratic process. there are procedures to address this injection. There are also lines of communication open to the members of the U6SA.

I'm curious did you talk to Mike or anyone from the U6SA about this injection before you purchased it?

The points you make are valid .Thats how this sport started out . I do appreciate the new Innovations as well . I don't think we should be locked into these though . It seems that certain Vendors and people have too much control over everything . We do need rules or " Capps " Like the Rev . limiter cap " This is good for everybody . Cut down flyweels , big deal who cares . Bladders are great but more thought should have been put into that one . To be fuel safe . There are cheaper alternitives . Now any changes have to be board approved which these very Vendors sit on . Hmmmm ! People shouldn't have to look for gray areas to try differant systems . Or have to sneak in fear of being called a cheater . We had a guy up here in NY. that ran his 600 sideways as an example . It was coupled with a motorcycle rearend and driveshaft . The motor had a narrow footprint and allowed for more chassis offset . You didn't need that fancy smantzy airbox either . Now we have backed ourselves into a corner . I have seen rear steer Midgets . Independent suspensions and lots of other neat stuff fall by the wayside because of what I would call pure selfishness . If everyone is so bent on safety , cost , and fairness ect for all of us I think we should put a little more thought into the decissions that effect everybody in the future . The first thing you should look at is the EFI . There are too many guidelines that are designed to protect it and give it an unfair advantage over everyother fuel system out there . " Rules are rules but fools are not fooled "

Some rules that actually can be inforced are not all bad. Set a cc limit. The national norm seems to be 640. The 2 big motor killers are rpm's and compression. All 3 of these can be checked in a matter of minutes without anything being taken apart and the procedures do not require the inspector to have an exceptional amount of technical knowledge. Obviously no type of forced induction,ie superchargers or turbos. Add a fuel test and a weight limit and go racing. The vendors will still make their money on $3-4000 dollar suspensions and all the other crap so everyone should be happy. A simple fuel cell is also just as safe as a bladder. I guess the 600 COT and "have at it boys" rules will be next though. That way the vendors can sell more parts!

The clarification committee has no vendors or manufactures on it. The committee who makes these clarifications consist of four racers, each of which drives a different type of chassis and uses a different engine builder, they are Kenny Miller, Glen Lewis, Randy Brookens, and Rick Steif.
To say that the rules favor a particular engine builder or chassis manufacturer is not fair, show me one rule that does this. The U6SA rules don't even have any chassis rules in them aside from the weight and bladder rule. All the chassis rules are still track specific.
Also to say that MFI does not need to be dynoed is not true either, there are tons of gains to made on the dyno with MFI, and yes it is just as suseptable to weather changes as EFI or Carbs. MFI does need to be tuned, in fact it is much harder to tune, no where near the control over delivery as EFI. I am all for inovation and would love to see MFI be legal, but it is not up to any one person, it must be voted on at the fall meeting. I have yet to recieve one rule change refering to MFI, please, someone take action here and do something that matters, something that will make a change, not just talk.

The clarification committee has no vendors or manufactures on it. The committee who makes these clarifications consist of four racers, each of which drives a different type of chassis and uses a different engine builder, they are Kenny Miller, Glen Lewis, Randy Brookens, and Rick Steif.
To say that the rules favor a particular engine builder or chassis manufacturer is not fair, show me one rule that does this. The U6SA rules don't even have any chassis rules in them aside from the weight and bladder rule. All the chassis rules are still track specific.
Also to say that MFI does not need to be dynoed is not true either, there are tons of gains to made on the dyno with MFI, and yes it is just as suseptable to weather changes as EFI or Carbs. MFI does need to be tuned, in fact it is much harder to tune, no where near the control over delivery as EFI. I am all for inovation and would love to see MFI be legal, but it is not up to any one person, it must be voted on at the fall meeting. I have yet to recieve one rule change refering to MFI, please, someone take action here and do something that matters, something that will make a change, not just talk.

Mike,
Not true....Rick Stief is a dealer for Don Guhl.... is he not? I remember our conversation vividly about that subject.... and yes MFI will benefit from a dyno run but it's close out of the box.... and the customer can tune it..

As far as the rule I wasn't aware we can submit something now and didn't have to wait until the fall


Maybe we should put chassis rules in? Why not ? You are gonna limit costs of motors but not chassis.....

Nice to see Doug Labant is still around! Gonna come back racing Doug????

I guess im gonna have to respond like doug on this one... for those that dont know me im Ted Enss and raced for years and follow the weekly results and the micro message board when i can. I too came up with an inovation in the late 90's that set fellow racers off the edge but fell within the rulebooks governing the sportsman division at airport and lanco. Guess what happened....niether track changed the rules mid season. Wanna know why? Because they both relized that inovation is just as inportant to this sport as the next great drver.
After reading all these posts, we all need to reflect on the following...
1, the rules should not be changed at a whim, especially when you are asking the same person effected to come back at the end of the season to submit a change for a vote.
2,The USA600 had and i think still has the best interest of the 600 micro sprint community at heart.
3, Airport Speedway made the decision to honor the USA600 rules and their decision to allow the 91 to run there probably for the same reason....to better the car counts at all tracks including their own.
4, Alot of the same parts and devices you buy at the chassis or engine builders shop to get an edge, came from a backyard race teams idea at some time or another.
5, And as far as moving this particular post...last time i checked a 600 was still a micro sprint.

................................

.............

I agree 100% on what Ted said.... Rules cannot just be changed on a whim. A date set forth every year to submit a change or addition is the best way. Before hand it is good to bring up the idea like this one so it can be hashed out before it is voted on. Kinda makes me think of elections. Yea congress is screwed up now but imagine if every other month we elected new officials with new rules and changes.

In all I think that the U6SA has done a pretty good job of impartially helping tracks to regulate the 600 rules in hopes to create a more standard rule package we can all race under. I believe the majority of us racers are happy with what the U6SA has been able to accomplish.

I once herd someone say.......
"I don't know the secret to success but I know trying to please everyone will only lead to certain failure."

I guess im gonna have to respond like doug on this one... for those that dont know me im Ted Enss and raced for years and follow the weekly results and the micro message board when i can. I too came up with an inovation in the late 90's that set fellow racers off the edge but fell within the rulebooks governing the sportsman division at airport and lanco. Guess what happened....niether track changed the rules mid season. Wanna know why? Because they both relized that inovation is just as inportant to this sport as the next great drver.
After reading all these posts, we all need to reflect on the following...
1, the rules should not be changed at a whim, especially when you are asking the same person effected to come back at the end of the season to submit a change for a vote.
2,The USA600 had and i think still has the best interest of the 600 micro sprint community at heart.
3, Airport Speedway made the decision to honor the USA600 rules and their decision to allow the 91 to run there probably for the same reason....to better the car counts at all tracks including their own.
4, Alot of the same parts and devices you buy at the chassis or engine builders shop to get an edge, came from a backyard race teams idea at some time or another.
5, And as far as moving this particular post...last time i checked a 600 was still a micro sprint.


no doubt teddy and yes you had a trick idea with that sportsman deal:D

I actually just got to thinking about this.. Do the EFI coming off the bike come with 8 injectors?? If they only come with 4 injectors then why cant you run a mechanical fuel injection?

I actually just got to thinking about this.. Do the EFI coming off the bike come with 8 injectors?? If they only come with 4 injectors then why cant you run a mechanical fuel injection?

You can! you just have to run stock throttle bodies and you can not modify the water pump to run the mechanical fuel pump. Nor can you violate any of the other engine rules to install the mechanical injection. Such as ignition etc etc.

If someone put their mind to it they could come up with mechanical injection kits that would work on most all of the stock throttle bodies and engines.

And it don't matter how many injectors it came with you can run as many or as few as you want as long as its the stock throttle bodies.

SO Bud....what your saying is that the guys that are shaving the fins off of their water pumps and running an electric water pump are legal????? becouse they still "use" the factory water pump??? an YES this is some one thats on the us6a board and also a few others!!!! so maybe before you want to start quoting rules maybe the "rules" should be inforced to EVERYONE!!!

SO Bud....what your saying is that the guys that are shaving the fins off of their water pumps and running an electric water pump are legal????? becouse they still "use" the factory water pump??? an YES this is some one thats on the us6a board and also a few others!!!! so maybe before you want to start quoting rules maybe the "rules" should be inforced to EVERYONE!!!

The rules are the rules. If the above is an issue and you race against them and are so sure of the pump modification then I am thinking you should protest them after a race and have them tore down.

Hey wait a second the Sportsman class idea was actually my idea I came up with and used the year before at Lanco :) And yes Lanco also followed yearly procedures and reviewed it during the next rules meeting.

As far as the shaved waterpump rumor and electronic water pump addition..... I would call that statement hearsay at best. In reality the truth MAY be.... the fins on the impeller are shaved down some to slow down the pumping effect Of the water pump. Running our engines at such high rpm can cause cavitation and / or too much flow. This can reduce the cooling effect of the cooling system.

I do agree that shaving the fins down on the impeller should be reviewed during this years meeting and voted on. The electronic water pump would definitely be illegal. I am glad someone pointed out the idea of running an additional pump and I will make sure this is reviewed during the next meeting and a rule specifically voted on to make this illegal or legal. I believe in the spirit of the rules it would be made illegal. That is IF it already isn't according to the current U6SA rules as they are currently outlined. In which I believe it is.........

Hmmm..... after reviewing the rules it clearly states no internal modifications may be done unless outlined in the rules. Any impeller modifications would be illigal at this time. It also outlines that you must use the stock waterpump. However it doesn't say you can't add an additional external pump as long as a completely stock internal pump is used. But this wouldn't net any gains.

One thing Hyper 89 might of failed to think about is the fact of an electronic water pump added to a system to free up horsepower would be a bad idea considering the charging system will need to work harder to keep it running. This would negate any gain making the idea senseless.

Bud....i really dont care one way or another if they are cheating like that, im just pointing some thing out that is going on!! if they are that hard up to get the what 2 maybe 3 horse from the water pump deal let them becouse like Jason said what you gain in taking out the water pump you lose on the charging system. HP does NOT win races, does it help on big tracks sure but if you cant get a car to handle an keep all that power to the ground its not doing you any good.

Jason...yes i have thought about that gain an lose with the 2 water pumps, what is gained in one is lost in another with the draw on the charging system, but heres some thing to think about....what if your car doesnt have any draw besides the electronics "no cooling fan" but like i said above, if ANY driver can feel a 2 HP gain they are one hell of a driver an shouldnt be racing micros! :)

all im trying to say is enough with quoting rules about this or that of why MFI is illegal, every one has said their 2 cents about it, it is being handled through the proper channels now to get it voted on in the winter.