For anyone needing info on MFI .. please post questions here as far as the vote I know a rule proposal option is to run MFI with the use of stock throttle bodies being converted there a few issues with that....feel free to comment if I am incorrect on anything

1. No current MFI(hilborne,engler,kinsler) manufacturers make conversion kits.... this would parlay it back in to HYPER and GUHL's court and not allowing any current MFI to sell their products without converting the factory throttle bodies....I highly doubt they(MFI MFG) will start converting because of U6SA.

2. If you were to convert for example a 2009 R6 such as what I run... from what I see they butterflys are controlled by the TPS or ECU.... how would we control that ? The very advantage of MFI is simplicity.... so having to use a sensor to open the butterfly is going against that and also relies on someone programming it adding more money.... I know if you have an '05 I am sure they are cable pull but as the newer motors come out it will be an issue.

mike the fly by wire is actuated my the trottle pedal. itoutta work fine.
The stock ecu reads the motion of the throttle cable barrel and actuates the butterflies automatically.

After much thought and research I am still of the opinion that MFI should only be allowed in stock throttle bodies. If MFI is allowed aftermarket bodies then to be fair EFI should be allowed aftermarket or other than stock bodies. That would open up a whole can of worms and drive up costs considerably.

I also believe water pump impellers and housings should be left stock as shipped from factory with no electric water pumps allowed.

Bud, I'm in agreement with you about the stock throttle bodies but I differ on the opinion of the water pumps. I would love to be able to run a mechanical fuel pump with my EFI and the only reasonable way todo that is through the waterpump drive. We go through at least 1 fuel pump a year and we only run 1 night a week. We flush our system with gas after every night of racing. These electric fuel pumps are just not reliable enough. I thought about running a mechanical pump off of the end of the cam but i'm very concerned with the wear on the cam chain tensioner and guides. What are your thoughts?

After much thought and research I am still of the opinion that MFI should only be allowed in stock throttle bodies. If MFI is allowed aftermarket bodies then to be fair EFI should be allowed aftermarket or other than stock bodies. That would open up a whole can of worms and drive up costs considerably.

I also believe water pump impellers and housings should be left stock as shipped from factory with no electric water pumps allowed.

with that kind of view why even vote on it.....? all that will do is give the current vendors another option and still keep MFI vendors out of east coast 600 racing.... not cool:cool:

We have found over the years that the electric fuel pumps are hit or miss.
Once we get one on that works for a couple weeks it seams to work for the rest of the season. We do not flush anything out from week to week and many times let the car set for weeks on end without racing.

We do however run klotz synthetic techniplate as top lube in our fuel.

Bud, we have found basically same thing, but it sucks to miss a race because a fuel pump decided to take a leave. This wouldn't be an issue with a mechanical pump. We run top lube also, it is in a red and black can, don't remember the name. The little mechanical pumps are a really neat little piece, and easily adapted to the water pump drive.

with that kind of view why even vote on it.....? all that will do is give the current vendors another option and still keep MFI vendors out of east coast 600 racing.... not cool:cool:

I would have to disagree. An MFI system can be fitted to stock throttle bodies and cam driven or piggybacked onto a stock water pump. Under the present U6SA rules.

I make my decisions based on what is going to benefit the Majority of racers who race under the U6SA rules and not the vendors. Adding the cost of opening up the throttle body rules is not in my opinion.

I would have to disagree. An MFI system can be fitted to stock throttle bodies and cam driven or piggybacked onto a stock water pump. Under the present U6SA rules.

I make my decisions on what is going to benefit the Majority of racers who race under the U6SA rules Adding the cost of opening up the throttle body rules is not in my opinion .


guess we'll see how the vote goes.... and one tid bit on the cam pump been there done that... its a mess with the valve covers and running a pump off the cam to me may cause premature wear

I would have to disagree. An MFI system can be fitted to stock throttle bodies and cam driven or piggybacked onto a stock water pump. Under the present U6SA rules.

I make my decisions based on what is going to benefit the Majority of racers who race under the U6SA rules and not the vendors. Adding the cost of opening up the throttle body rules is not in my opinion.

Efi systems have every advantage possable over Carbs , which are the only alternative thats legal . They have multipul Injectors per cylender , Movable Air boxes which change intake tract length , multipal fuel maps , auto tuning , real time tuning . Much more . They cannot be tuned by the average Joe . They are not tuned by the average Joe either . This is very unfare IMO to all other fuel systems . Yes the rules are the same for everyone , Is this what you call fareness ? Actually people were using MFI long before they were running EFI on the 600's in this class across this whole nation ! If anything they probably should be grandfathered in . I can tell by past post that this won't be a popular post but the way we seem to want to limit the MFI I think there might be a good Court case here . I think there needs to be alot more discussion before you vote on this , to say the least . Do you guys realize you could cause a split in your class because of an issue such as this ? I'm not trying to stir anything up , Just trying to give you some points that need more thought . People on both sides are adimit about their position somehow you have to find common ground . So both sides fwwl good about it and good luck with that . We are intrested in having a 600 car . I don't like the idea of having only a couple of tuners do my EFI work and check my rpm's . If I do my own tuning it probably won't comply with your tuners because it will be differant than the ones you always refer to . So to be able to set MFI instead of EFI would eliminate alot of these ECU issues you have . Also the add-ons like wb02 and bazzaz ect .

So are the guys running carbs competitive? Do they run up front with the injector guys? It appears that FTZ or ODUMS make a nice carb package that is affordable, but what is the opinions on carb vs. injection? It looks to be cheaper to run carbs, can tune yourself, no dyno's, no power commanders, less wiring, etc. but at what performance cost?

mike, no one wants to keep the MFI guys out of the class. The issue is the MFI guys developed a system for a class that is based primarily in the midwest and has an open engine rule. you can't just expect a the U6SA to say ok. if you want my vote you have to show me two things
#1 cost of the system including labor to install
#2 performance data

i will base my decision on cost vs. performance. there are definitley some attractive things about the MFI but we need information. if it is comparable in price and performance to EFI and it will give racers another option. then i am all for it. but if it is more, which a few of the systems seem to be, and there is also a significant performance gain then i will be against it. For the reason that it will make people spend money to "keep up" i am all for innovation. i am also for opening the rules but i also know that will hurt the class.

guess we'll see how the vote goes.... and one tid bit on the cam pump been there done that... its a mess with the valve covers and running a pump off the cam to me may cause premature wear

I don't see the the big issue with throttle bodies, I'm sure the vendors could make kits the fit mfi to the stock throttle bodies or the rules could be written to make aftermarket throttle bodies the same size as stock ones, whichever is the more cost effective way. I do however think the water pumps should be allowed to be electric so the fuel pump can be driven reliably off the water pump drive. either way, efi or mfi the engine is still driving a mechanical pump and the fuel pump probably draws more HP.

I agree with Wayne that if there is a performance advantage to mfi it will force people to switch to mfi. I spoke with a dealer for the Engler mfi system and was told he saw a definite power increase on the dyno and on the track with the Engler system, ecspecially in the higher rpms. In flow bench testing they found the Engler system flowed 12 cfm more than any carb or throttle body on the same head. Believe me I am no fan of efi and would love to have another alternative but it needs to be an EQUAL alternative in performance so that someone can still run efi and not be at a disadvantage.

For anyone needing info on MFI .. please post questions here as far as the vote I know a rule proposal option is to run MFI with the use of stock throttle bodies being converted there a few issues with that....feel free to comment if I am incorrect on anything

1. No current MFI(hilborne,engler,kinsler) manufacturers make conversion kits.... this would parlay it back in to HYPER and GUHL's court and not allowing any current MFI to sell their products without converting the factory throttle bodies....I highly doubt they(MFI MFG) will start converting because of U6SA.

Why would they not offer an MFI system that used stock throttle bodies? Seems like that they would only be hurting their business by not offering that as an option for people that have to/want to use the stock throttle bodies.

If the rule is passed in such a way that any throttle body could be used on MFI or EFI don't you think the existing EFI suppliers would immediately start experimenting with using something other than stock throttle bodies? I am willing to bet they will.

Why would they not offer an MFI system that used stock throttle bodies? Seems like that they would only be hurting their business by not offering that as an option for people that have to/want to use the stock throttle bodies.

If the rule is passed in such a way that any throttle body could be used on MFI or EFI don't you think the existing EFI suppliers would immediately start experimenting with using something other than stock throttle bodies? I am willing to bet they will.

zach... Current MFI mfgs biz is not big in the 600 car market which is very small therefore they will not change what they already sell because a couple of racers don't like it..... its would be more in tune that hyper or guhl who's biz is 100% 600 cars for them to experiment

This is what I am hearing from your posts..... almost everyone has bought into the EFI is the latest and greatest... then Engler comes around.... (MFI) but since we are singling out the Engler system I'll go with you guys for a second.....

* Pricing seems to be close ...... you guys aren't factoring in what a rebuild or a new engine will cost when your EFI stick open or closes an injector... that won't happen on MFI plus other reliability issues with efi i.e. fuel pumps

* You spent money on Hyper OR Guhl EFI..... MFI comes out.... close in money better reliability....racer tuneable.....better performance.... less issues...

* You now can't sell you EFI system because everyone wants the MFI so your stuck with a white elephant therefore it's easier to say no to new innovation and complain about performance enhancement and price.... maybe to you guys who bought into the efi deals.... what about the 270 guy who is moving up? To him it's a no brainer

* If lets say PMP(west coast-not local) came out with a new 600 that shaved a second off your lap time at any track over our local builders HYPER-RTS-STALLARD etc.... and cost $30,000.00(high to make a point since you guys are bitchin' about price) would we ban that because it would make all the current cars obsolete and people would want it? WHAT IF IT WAS PRETTY DAM CLOSE TO THE CURRENT PRICING? Would we still have people complaining about it because now their current car is yesterdays news and they would have a flooded market of these cars that would be sold at huge losses because they all want the new "SUPER PMP" ?:eek:

Racing is about innovation and it didn't get to where it is now by running the same chassis and motors that we ran in 1993....... if that were the case we should all just run legend cars they seem to be the same...

A lot of you same guys complaining about this product are the same guys waiting for next years cars with checkbooks open....even if its no better:cool::cool:

I have tried to be as open book as possible answer anyones ?'s and pretty much went out on a limb and paid for this system not knowing the performance or any other issues it may have had when it was legal in january.... now it was deemed illegal after I bought by a clarification committee.... how nice... we are here now and its up to you guys to vote it in or out.... voting it in gives you freedom from what you have now.... voting it out leaves you in the same arena as you are now.... with really no other options but a few vendors... no advancement.... no innovation....... more like stagnation and a constant money cycle to keep up with the latest maps the latest moveable stacks the latest auto tunes the latest injectors..... where is one fair and the other is not? the line is so blurred when it comes to the current status of racers choices.... I hope it does pass because I want people to see the benefits of it... and before some smartass puts a remeark like "I" just want the HP advantage of the runners..... well take your EFI throw it on top of some runners(maybe cost you a $100 in material) and you got the same set up because the butterfly are the same size as factory...... HAPPY VOTING:D

mike, no one wants to keep the MFI guys out of the class. The issue is the MFI guys developed a system for a class that is based primarily in the midwest and has an open engine rule. you can't just expect a the U6SA to say ok. if you want my vote you have to show me two things
#1 cost of the system including labor to install
#2 performance data

i will base my decision on cost vs. performance. there are definitley some attractive things about the MFI but we need information. if it is comparable in price and performance to EFI and it will give racers another option. then i am all for it. but if it is more, which a few of the systems seem to be, and there is also a significant performance gain then i will be against it. For the reason that it will make people spend money to "keep up" i am all for innovation. i am also for opening the rules but i also know that will hurt the class.


pm your # and i will answer any questions you have wayne....

and it wasnt developed for a midwest open class.... i ran hilborne at airport in 1995....on bone stock motors... edit 1996

Mike, in a previous post you mention about EFI sticking an injector either open or closed. Which as we all know, can and does happen.

My question is this. Can the MFI system not have the same thing happen? Or does it not use injectors to supply the fuel? I know the pump is attached to the water pump so it increases its output as the engine revs. I am just wondering how the fuel is then delivered across the cylinders?

Mike, in a previous post you mention about EFI sticking an injector either open or closed. Which as we all know, can and does happen.

My question is this. Can the MFI system not have the same thing happen? Or does it not use injectors to supply the fuel? I know the pump is attached to the water pump so it increases its output as the engine revs. I am just wondering how the fuel is then delivered across the cylinders?


no it cannot.... its constant flow through a barrel valve that flows fuel into the nozzles and the excess fuel is regulated by several bypasses... google MFI systems

THEY burn & blow up 358-360-410 using the MFI system A LOT

THEY burn & blow up 358-360-410 using the MFI system A LOT

sucks for those guys:cool:

We have yet to admit that we make carb (stock converted carbs) guys pay 4times more to get into efi. So price should not be an issue to go twice as much for mfi.

We have yet to admit that we sell efi over carbs because of the advantage you get with efi (better throttle response and better power curve with no spikes/drops, etc.). So the advantage should not be an issue with mfi.

We have yet to discuss that after the initial buy in, how much upkeep money is spent on the necessities (fuel needle, vacuum needles for carbs; back up injectors, injector cleaning/replacement for efi; what needs replacing on mfi?). This is more money that we only use to our selling advantage and write off as a part of racing.

I have a cousin that has been drag/boat racing for years using mfi and said one advantage is the lack of having to replace parts after using the same system for years (this was a comment he made last Christmas before I even cared about mfi).

As you know, we have done extensive research regarding MFI for the last several months.

We have found that, depending on the operating fuel pressure, the fuel nozzels (Injectors) of a 4 injector system have a hole which all of the fuel for a particular cylinder goes through that is somewhere between 0.010" - 0.020" (and smaller yet for an 8 injector system). Holes that small can and do get plugged (in whole or part) and will cause the same holes in the pistons. So, the statement "MFI will not cause burnt pistons" simply can't be true.

Also, during our testing, we have found that with the very high volume of fuel pumped through the MFI systems, the mechanical fuel pumps can be very sensitive to restrictions to the fuel pump, causing cavitation and sever lean conditions. These conditions will certainly have the same devistating effect on the engine.

I'm not here put anything down or to claim that one system is better/more reliable than another. Time will tell all in that regard.

I just want to discuss facts. I'm sure everyone can appreciate that.

If I'm missing something here, I'd love to learn more...

Thanks!

As you know, we have done extensive research regarding MFI for the last several months.

We have found that, depending on the operating fuel pressure, the fuel nozzels (Injectors) of a 4 injector system have a hole which all of the fuel for a particular cylinder goes through that is somewhere between 0.010" - 0.020" (and smaller yet for an 8 injector system). Holes that small can and do get plugged (in whole or part) and will cause the same holes in the pistons. So, the statement "MFI will not cause burnt pistons" simply can't be true.

Also, during our testing, we have found that with the very high volume of fuel pumped through the MFI systems, the mechanical fuel pumps can be very sensitive to restrictions to the fuel pump, causing cavitation and sever lean conditions. These conditions will certainly have the same devistating effect on the engine.

I'm not here put anything down or to claim that one system is better/more reliable than another. Time will tell all in that regard.

I just want to discuss facts. I'm sure everyone can appreciate that.

If I'm missing something here, I'd love to learn more...

Thanks!

maybe so maybe not..I tend to side with Engler or Kinsler on that info no offense ..... but at the end of the day its apples to oranges in sensitivity to restriction or flow issues(my screens are far bigger then efi nozzle screens I also have a very good filter so I'm not concerned.....if everything is plumbed as per directed the pump will have no cavitation issues...i have no doubt my system is more reliable then any efi system....no matter how anyone spins the efi 8 ball.... i will add no one system is perfect.... just less issues to me... if kinser swindell and schatz put their faith in engler's systems on their outlaw cars...... why can't I?

btw have you tested and stuck a mfi nozzle and burned a motor down?

no matter how anyone spins the efi 8 ball.... i will add no one system is perfect.... just less issues to me...

That was my point...

That was my point...


i guess i should have prefaced all of this with that statement

The issue is not whether efi or mfi is better, more reliable, costs more or less, etc. The real question is should we change the current rules and allow the mfi in it's current form or keep the rule as it is so that ALL injection systems use stock throttle bodies. In my opinion, opening up the rules and allowing aftermarket throttle bodies is only going to cost all of us racers money. EFI guys will make new efi systems with aftermarket intakes and then all of the current efi systems will be obsolete. You may have $3000-4000 to spend on a new injection system but not everyone does. So what happens to those racers? Is innovation worth the cost of losing racers? You have said many times that you can make mfi work using the stock throttle bodies so why do we need to change the rule in the 1st place?

Is innovation worth the cost of losing racers?


We lose racers all the time because they can not afford fuel injection, new tires, or the newest chassis but think that they need it to be competitive. Yet I would guess that the I-30 nationals would be the most diversified field of 600 drivers, chassis, engine, and fuel delievery combinations. And I was impressed with Jared Wilson's (OK) win with r6 carbs, Ben Murphy's run before the electrical issues for one of Pa's greats laying it down, Dusty Gates (La?) charge with a 06-07 Suzuki engine, Travis Senter (ak) for winning (twice?) with FTZ's stuff, and Jason Lair's (OK) win in an older chassis and wild hair (nothing but love for ya). (If anything is misrepresented in relation to I-30 race facts, it is by mistake and not intentional)

But if it is about something that is affordable for the majority, hated by carb and injection guys alike, and fits the current rules; then lets go with Keihin flatslides. Guhl, Dicely, and the other fuel delievery/builder guys have ran or worked with them. You can get a new set cheaper than either injection and a used set for the price of freshly converted r6 carbs. :)

You have said many times that you can make mfi work using the stock throttle bodies so why do we need to change the rule in the 1st place?

My point exactly.

:cool:
My point exactly.

I have? I dont think I said it many times.... can it be done? anything can be done.... but it will a) cost me more money to have that done because now it will be custom and b) why change an already complete system when the throttle body size is the same.. makes no sense to incur more expense be realistic just to satisfy a few people's issues about money.... when the same people are riding around with several thousand dollars of sway bars and double adjustable shocks as well as expensive carbon fiber bodies..... lets not forget the must have stage 1-10 engines that is a must have... come on guys

AND I WILL REPEAT THIS AGAIN.... ONLY YOUR CURRENT EFI VENDORS(GUHL,HYPER) WILL MAKE THE CONVERSION TO USE MFI....AS THE TOP THREE MFI MAKERS WOULD NOT SEE FIT TO CUSTOM MAKE A CONVERSION WHEN THEY ALREADY SELL A COMPLETE MFI SYSTEM FOR JUST A HANDFUL OF U6SA..... IT WOULD BE COST PROHIBITIVE AS A BUSINESS.....

The issue is not whether efi or mfi is better, more reliable, costs more or less, etc. The real question is should we change the current rules and allow the mfi in it's current form or keep the rule as it is so that ALL injection systems use stock throttle bodies. In my opinion, opening up the rules and allowing aftermarket throttle bodies is only going to cost all of us racers money. EFI guys will make new efi systems with aftermarket intakes and then all of the current efi systems will be obsolete. You may have $3000-4000 to spend on a new injection system but not everyone does. So what happens to those racers? Is innovation worth the cost of losing racers? You have said many times that you can make mfi work using the stock throttle bodies so why do we need to change the rule in the 1st place?

Are you runnning your efi right off the bike on gas?

all these prices are up front cost and no tuning cost (that is required with EFI) this is why some what MFI. with MFI you do not have to or need to use a specialist unless you WANT to. if cost is every ones only issue, than the only problem is fuel not fuel delivery. keep gas and we will have a need for conversion cost


hilborn - mfi for bikes $1,375
http://hilborninjection.com/product.asp?Id=42&CatId=205


kinsler -no price need to call
http://www.kinsler.com/viewhandbook.cgi


engler - looks to be around $1,800
http://www.englermachine.com/category-s/22.htm?searching=Y&sort=13&cat=22&show=10&page=7


guhl - need to call
http://www.guhlmotors.com/


hyper - verys depending on application between $750 to $2,600
http://www.hyperracing.com/browse.asp?id=830&classid=17&catid=705

all these prices are up front cost and no tuning cost (that is required with EFI) this is why some what MFI. with MFI you do not have to or need to use a specialist unless you WANT to.



hilborn - mfi for bikes $1,375
http://hilborninjection.com/product.asp?Id=42&CatId=205


kinsler -no price need to call
http://www.kinsler.com/viewhandbook.cgi


engler - looks to be around $1,800
http://www.englermachine.com/category-s/22.htm?searching=Y&sort=13&cat=22&show=10&page=7


guhl - need to call
http://www.guhlmotors.com/


hyper - verys depending on application between $750 to $2,600
http://www.hyperracing.com/browse.asp?id=830&classid=17&catid=705

thanks for pointing this out... at least someone can see that the ongoing efi tuning costs will always occur ...... yes you can run one map forever but lets be realistic who does that... no one!

And Hyper/Guhl will provide a map based on your setup, no need to tune. Or for the cost of one dyno session, you can have an onboard wideband o2 with the auto tune. Again, no need to go dyno. Spin it however you want to, the main issue is, "Is there a significant PERFORMANCE advantage with the non-stock TB MFI systems?"

Any person with common sense knows that this is all just a fuel delivery debate. What perks the ears is when the MFI manufacturers advertise a gain in HP with there systems. If it was a nut for nut comparison, there is no appreciable increase in power just be switching to MFI. With EFI, you can tune to optimum AFR's at each point along the curve. Theoretically speaking, you wont make anymore power with efi vs. carbs vs. mfi given these conditions at optimum AFR. Something else has to change in order for that to occur. IE, runner size, runner length, etc.

:cool:

I have? I dont think I said it many times.... can it be done? anything can be done.... but it will a) cost me more money to have that done because now it will be custom and b) why change an already complete system when the throttle body size is the same.. makes no sense to incur more expense be realistic just to satisfy a few people's issues about money.... when the same people are riding around with several thousand dollars of sway bars and double adjustable shocks as well as expensive carbon fiber bodies..... lets not forget the must have stage 1-10 engines that is a must have... come on guys

AND I WILL REPEAT THIS AGAIN.... ONLY YOUR CURRENT EFI VENDORS(GUHL,HYPER) WILL MAKE THE CONVERSION TO USE MFI....AS THE TOP THREE MFI MAKERS WOULD NOT SEE FIT TO CUSTOM MAKE A CONVERSION WHEN THEY ALREADY SELL A COMPLETE MFI SYSTEM FOR JUST A HANDFUL OF U6SA..... IT WOULD BE COST PROHIBITIVE AS A BUSINESS.....

I understand your piont about "satisfy a few people's issues about money". What about changing the entire rule package just to satisfy one person?

I am in favor of MFI as long as it uses stock/factory throttle bodies. I feel if any throttle bodies were allowed to be used it would hurt the 600 class overall.

Ultimately though, the decision is not up to me. I will present the facts to the racers at the track I represent and their overall decision is the way I will be voting at the meeting.

And Hyper/Guhl will provide a map based on your setup, no need to tune. Or for the cost of one dyno session, you can have an onboard wideband o2 with the auto tune. Again, no need to go dyno. Spin it however you want to, the main issue is, "Is there a significant PERFORMANCE advantage with the non-stock TB MFI systems?"

Any person with common sense knows that this is all just a fuel delivery debate. What perks the ears is when the MFI manufacturers advertise a gain in HP with there systems. If it was a nut for nut comparison, there is no appreciable increase in power just be switching to MFI. With EFI, you can tune to optimum AFR's at each point along the curve. Theoretically speaking, you wont make anymore power with efi vs. carbs vs. mfi given these conditions at optimum AFR. Something else has to change in order for that to occur. IE, runner size, runner length, etc.

do you have proof of signigant gains?

and if its an issue of runner length just add them to your efi...

I understand your piont about "satisfy a few people's issues about money". What about changing the entire rule package just to satisfy one person?

It's not one person ...... I am just the one person who has done something different and was willing to make a change... there are a lot of people who want choices...

The issue is not whether efi or mfi is better, more reliable, costs more or less, etc. The real question is should we change the current rules and allow the mfi in it's current form or keep the rule as it is so that ALL injection systems use stock throttle bodies. In my opinion, opening up the rules and allowing aftermarket throttle bodies is only going to cost all of us racers money. EFI guys will make new efi systems with aftermarket intakes and then all of the current efi systems will be obsolete. You may have $3000-4000 to spend on a new injection system but not everyone does. So what happens to those racers? Is innovation worth the cost of losing racers? You have said many times that you can make mfi work using the stock throttle bodies so why do we need to change the rule in the 1st place?

The problem with stock is they have to be modified for the MFI parts . This is an additional cost . Especially when you can buy MFI bodies that are already setup to run MFI parts like EFI tb's are setup for EFI parts . There are other ways to make this fair to all . Such as the SAE cars . They run a 4 into one manifold with one airhorn and one air filter . They have the Injectors on the runners . They have a 22mm. restrictor on a 600cc 4cyl. motor . Let people rev their motors all they want . you won't gain anything once you hit sonic wave speed . You don't need to check revs , ha ha . At least both systems would be on a level playing field . I don't think you should be in a hurry to vote on this till we all have a complete understanding . In the end MFI is more user friendly . You can call the factory and they can usually help with your problem over the phone . If you run a 120 micron filter before your pump you will never clog an Injector either . Unless you go to EFI school you will never understand what you can do to programming a system and you are always changing it to keep up . Plus we don't have a Don Guhl on every street corner . You can take your MFI system with you no matter what motor you run with minor mods. if any . You can spend $400.00 for an EFI electric pump . Or $400.00 for a MFI pump . You use a pressure relief valve and bypass return on both so they don't cavitate or build up too much pressure . Efi is state of the art . MFI is straight forward . EFI has all the advantages and is not fair to other fuel systems and currently the most expensive system right now also . MFI will always finish a race unless you loose your pump . This might sound biased FYI I love EFI but it is more expensive to maintain to . Lots of things to go wrong (nice when working right) I also believe in freedom of choice .

I am in favor of MFI as long as it uses stock/factory throttle bodies. I feel if any throttle bodies were allowed to be used it would hurt the 600 class overall.

Ultimately though, the decision is not up to me. I will present the facts to the racers at the track I represent and their overall decision is the way I will be voting at the meeting.

well zach I hope you do present the facts because alot of what's being thrown around here seems to be cheerleaders and people wanting to stop innovation.... I'm sure if it was one of the current vendor's new mfi systems all of their current clients would be all for it but because a select few have voiced it to be " an unfair hp enhancing over priced system" then everyone should vote against it cause we all have efi that we spent thousands on..and we can't afford to step up...... to me that's not realistic......

where are the facts about these signifigant gains? please show me!!!! where are the facts about these so called intake runner lengths.... its all a throw what you can against the wall and see what sticks .... if its not price then its the hp advantage if its not that then its the runners if its not that then its " well we all have efi now we have to buy mfi to keep up"

just be fair and honest and present the facts that you DO HAVE not ones that come from the so callled "know-it-alls"

do you have proof of signigant gains?

and if its an issue of runner length just add them to your efi...

Re-read my post, "What perks the ears is when the MFI manufacturers advertise a gain in HP with there systems"

And the issue of spacers on the intake port has already been asked. Has been deemed illegal to do. I still have a set of spacers sitting on my shelf from earlier in the year...

Re-read my post, "What perks the ears is when the MFI manufacturers advertise a gain in HP with there systems"

And the issue of spacers on the intake port has already been asked. Has been deemed illegal to do. I still have a set of spacers sitting on my shelf from earlier in the year...


Where is the ruling that deemed it illegal because when i mentioned to mike dicely on the u6sa conf call that there was no rule about taking his or guhls efi and slapping it on top of my runners(since everyone is focusing on them)..... his answer was "youre right and thats another gray area"

Re-read my post, "What perks the ears is when the MFI manufacturers advertise a gain in HP with there systems"

And the issue of spacers on the intake port has already been asked. Has been deemed illegal to do. I still have a set of spacers sitting on my shelf from earlier in the year...

and hyper advertises that their efi is "better then carbs... instant throttle response, better performance, more consistency.... and the alcohol conversion is 3 more hp over stock gas efi...." so to knock another mfg's advertising when the system you personally run does the exact same advertising doesn't add up..... i mean if i had carbs i would be like dam now i cant afford hypers efi because its several thousand bucks and i'd have to throw all my carb stuff away....... makes more hp and i cant keep up..... YEAH LETS GO AHEAD AND BAN THE EFI.....




can you see the same situation now with the MFI vs EFI....

Where is the ruling that deemed it illegal because when i mentioned to mike dicely on the u6sa conf call that there was no rule about taking his or guhls efi and slapping it on top of my runners(since everyone is focusing on them)..... his answer was "youre right and thats another gray area"

I am going on heresay honestly. Had 2 different people tell me the same thing about the intake spacers. BUT, that being said, i don't know if there was a 'ruling'. Only the question asked and advised that it would not be legal.

and hyper advertises that their efi is "better then carbs... instant throttle response, better performance, more consistency.... and the alcohol conversion is 3 more hp over stock gas efi...." so to knock another mfg's advertising when the system you personally run does the exact same advertising doesn't add up..... i mean if i had carbs i would be like dam now i cant afford hypers efi because its several thousand bucks and i'd have to throw all my carb stuff away....... makes more hp and i cant keep up..... YEAH LETS GO AHEAD AND BAN THE EFI.....




can you see the same situation now with the MFI vs EFI....

I can get 3 hp over carbs any day of the week. Carbs don't have the ability to keep optimum AFR throughout the rev band. Efi does. Mfi doesn't to my knowledge either. and to me, 3 hp is not significant (2%). 7 and up is (5%+) JMO.

I can get 3 hp over carbs any day of the week. Carbs don't have the ability to keep optimum AFR throughout the rev band. Efi does. Mfi doesn't to my knowledge either. and to me, 3 hp is not significant (2%). 7 and up is (5%+) JMO.

well technology is always progressing i guess.... just look at your cell phones haha:eek:

where are the facts about these signifigant gains? please show me!!!! where are the facts about these so called intake runner lengths.... its all a throw what you can against the wall and see what sticks .... if its not price then its the hp advantage if its not that then its the runners if its not that then its " well we all have efi now we have to buy mfi to keep up"

I know you were offered some dyno time so we could gather information on the system you are running versus an EFI system. And I know you turned it down. There was a perfect chance to show everyone how the system you are running would have compared to the EFI systems that are currently being used.

Hmm..... you couldn't buy a cell phone forty years ago. Did they have MFI then? :-) I'm failing to see progress with MFI......

I know you were offered some dyno time so we could gather information on the system you are running versus an EFI system. And I know you turned it down. There was a perfect chance to show everyone how the system you are running would have compared to the EFI systems that are currently being used.


Zach please get your facts straight i turned down dynoing my motor in my car .... I offered the injection that's all an that's more then fair....

Hmm..... you couldn't buy a cell phone forty years ago. Did they have MFI then? :-) I'm failing to see progress with MFI......

you know you just made a point.... the mfi has not really changed in forty or so years it's been around still have nozzles and bypasses and pumps still operate on the same principles

The only place that I can find any stated HP gains is on a builders website. He is selling the product so like all other vendors he is going to speak to it as an advantage. One builder has been joked on more than once by all kinds of people as to their website that everything they sell produced 3 or more HP. The punch line being their engines should be producing over 150hp.

At the same time, you have to ask yourself "when a vendor states that what they are selling is offering more horsepower/torque what are they comparing to?" Whose stuff are they using when comparing? What dyno parameters are there on the given day? Etc?

for arguments sake....lets take the average zx 6 makes low 130s get it stage 1 or 2 or 100 and it makes about 7 more.... so lets say theroretically the englers make 7 more then efi... why not outlaw the modifications on these motors and leave them stock.... and we are back at the same hp and we all save $2500 dollars on motor mods....:D:D win win.... well then you would have the motor builders screaming:eek:

Motor builders are already screaminf since the rules have limited their services. Porting etc.

Zach please get your facts straight i turned down dynoing my motor in my car .... I offered the injection that's all an that's more then fair....

How is that more than fair? You are the only person (as far as everyone knows) in this area that is set-up and running the MFI at this time. Someone else would have to change their entire set-up around to be able to run the MFI. I don't understand why you wouldn't be willing to dyno the motor/system on your car so we could have some kind of comparison.

It should be fair to take his offer of the exact system he is running and put on an engine and see what it does. For we are talking about the MFI not the whole package.

If thats not fair then neither is any vendor that gets his numbers off of a matched tuned engine/fuel delievery system that gets the best numbers but will be different than what I may have (that goes back to selling a product). I have been told that to get the best out of some vendors stuff, I would need their whole package not just the add on's.

I thought we were wanting to compare apples to apples.

Your not listening. It isn't as easy as saying here is my system, use it.

I use Guhl EFI. If someone was saying here is a Hyper system, put it on your motor and see how it compares that would be fair. I wouldn't have to make any modifications to my current fuel delivery/system set-up. All I would need to do is take my Guhl injection off the intake boots and install the Hyper injection on the intake boots.

This is not the case for the MFI. I can't just take my Guhl injection off and put the Engler (or any MFI) system on. I need to change other components within my existing fuel delivery system in order to run it.

Just say no!

I guess that begs the question if the total MFI system was offered? Start with the connection at the tank through pump, filter, bypass, etc, and into the injectors mounted in the throttle bodies with the pump adapter that runs off of the water pump (not the cam from what I remember).

I thought that Mike is using factory electronics. Take it off of his car/r6 onto another car/r6.

If Don did it with his guts wiring or if Dicely did it with his fit system then again it would be comparing efi to mfi.

Did we make anyone dyno the first single EFI alcohol injection engine to see if it would have have an advantage over carbs (and make them obsolete)...NO!!!

Did we make anyone dyno the first dual EFI alcohol injection engine to see if it would have an advantage over carbs and single injection (and again make them obsolete)...NO!!!

So why such the big deal NOW when we don't outlaw carbon fiber bodies, titanium and cockpit adjustables? Why because this mechanical injection is too much money or has an advantage or both. I am not hating on Guhl or Dicely (I have bought stuff from both of them and respect what they do for the sport) but this sure looks bad from the outside looking in. How can you pick and choose on certain things like Engler Injection BUT let ALL the other stuff go that has driven up the cost of the sport but is not necessary for a good show.

Did we make anyone dyno the first single EFI alcohol injection engine to see if it would have have an advantage over carbs (and make them obsolete)...NO!!!

Did we make anyone dyno the first dual EFI alcohol injection engine to see if it would have an advantage over carbs and single injection (and again make them obsolete)...NO!!!

So why such the big deal NOW when we don't outlaw carbon fiber bodies, titanium and cockpit adjustables? Why because this mechanical injection is too much money or has an advantage or both. I am not hating on Guhl or Dicely (I have bought stuff from both of them and respect what they do for the sport) but this sure looks bad from the outside looking in. How can you pick and choose on certain things like Engler Injection BUT let ALL the other stuff go that has driven up the cost of the sport but is not necessary for a good show.

But you forgot to mention the Movable air stacks to , LOL . Seriously though when guys started messing with EFI there was no UA6A or competition for or against it . Now some have shown an intrest in something they feel that they can tune and is more user friendly to them .They might feel their hands are tied to the big two when it comes to EFI . Maybe they want to be independant of that . It is an alternattive fuel system . I agree with everything you said , we keep paying for the doo dads and that is just to keep up . Otherwise we fall behind . All the supplyers are great guys and add value to our sport . If MFI is approved and there is an intrest in it , I'm sure they will climb on board as they did with the EFI system . You will still dyno tune (at least once) but you will find more dyno tuners that you can go to in your area MFI .

The whole principle on this idea not working is the fact that the EFI has always been only on engines that came with EFI from the factory. The throttle bodies had to remain stock for that engine. No boring or lengthening of the bodies etc. The idea of letting MFI allowed does not fit into these rules unless we change the rules across the board. Meaning that now you could do whatever you want with the bore size and runner length and run whatever year cc size etc of the EFI stuff. Not to mention you could use electronic water pumps etc. If the MFI does in fact make more HP than the current EFI as it stands.... I am more than confident that allowing the EFI to run whatever throttle body setup would even the playing field. However I have a feeling that it would allow the EFI a chance to make more HP than any MFI setup. In the end by making this rule fair to MFI vs EFI the only thing allowing this would do is to drive up the cost of racing. Imagine buying EFI and purpose built and modified throttle bodies..... $$$$ another $1000 or $2000

If the MFI ruling was to have to retain that engines year make and model throttle bodies it would allow the rules for the EFI to stay almost the same. I know that it was stated that the two MFI companies wouldn't be interested in doing this. If they weren't interested in changing a bit as we are being asked to change a bit then I would say that they aren't serious about being in our market.

Remember too that allowing MFI to be installed into stock throttle bodies would allow them to place the nozzles at any angle and location they wish. This would also have to be allowed with the EFI and I can promise you all now.... first thing I would do is pull an injection apart and change my injector angle to utilize a different injector that will atomize my alcohol fuel better at that new angle and location. ;)

why would your new angle be better, dont you think the top four motor company did ther home work and testing???

why would your new angle be better, dont you think the top four motor company did ther home work and testing???

Sure they did their home work on pump gas.
The specific gravity of methanol and gasoline are different, not by a ton but enough that it merits a closer look at injector atomization..
Also we run our engines in a rather narrower range of rpm compared to a sport bike. A sport bike still needs to be able to put around town.
All we have to do is keep running under caution:) So there may be some validity to toying with different injector lengths and angles in the bodies.

Yea like he said :D Its all in the fuel man..... ;)

Not to mention they have to idle in all conditions... They have to pass smogg testing... They need smooth power delivery...

You would be amazed at what a few degrees can do with a different spray pattern.

but what about the motors that came with 4 (FOUR) injectors that are allowed to run 8 (EIGHT) how is that fair for the people who can only afford the 4 injector setup?

The funny thing is, we have been beaten plenty by guys with 4 injector setups...

I agree that the progressive development of efi is based on what comes from factory (8 injectors/adj stacks).

I agree that if one really wants to run mfi as opposed to efi they can install the nozzles into the factory location of stock throttle bodies and be legal (except for the pump drive issue - which should be allowed).

I agree that carbs are allowed as an alternative to injection which are cheaper yet competitive. (However, most think that they are inferior to injection.)

What I don't understand is the full intent of the u6sa. I thought that the intent was to provide one set of rules that allows racers to travel from track to track and be in compliance (which is what I agree with in the first two statements of this post). But this discussion has touched on keeping the cost of racing down and keeping competition close.

The tire issue should fall under the u6sa if the intent is to help racers travel between tracks whether it is a spec or open rule.

Tracks should stick to the u6sa rules if they sign on to them. Yet if it is the local racers only at the track and the track and local racers allow mfi or anything else outside of the rules to run, that should be their right as well - it's their money.

;)

What I don't understand is the full intent of the u6sa. I thought that the intent was to provide one set of rules that allows racers to travel from track to track and be in compliance (which is what I agree with in the first two statements of this post). But this discussion has touched on keeping the cost of racing down and keeping competition close.

This was the original intention, along with that it would help to keep costs under control by having universal rules. Some people have taken it out of context to say the U6SA is supposed to save us money, period. Only in the context that we don't need to buy equipment X to race at track ABC, as we can run our same equipment from track XYZ. The U6SA cannot keep people from spending money uneccessarily


Tracks should stick to the u6sa rules if they sign on to them. Yet if it is the local racers only at the track and the track and local racers allow mfi or anything else outside of the rules to run, that should be their right as well - it's their money.

Correct. If a track adopts the U6SA rules, it does so as a WHOLE, not where it sees fit, or makes a judgement. if a track wants to pick and choose what rules to follow, it should be taken off the Track list and loose voting priviledges. Its simply not fair to all other U6SA tracks and racers that conform to the rules.

Correct. If a track adopts the U6SA rules, it does so as a WHOLE, not where it sees fit, or makes a judgement. if a track wants to pick and choose what rules to follow, it should be taken off the Track list and loose voting priviledges. Its simply not fair to all other U6SA tracks and racers that conform to the rules.

I agree. The above would make a good addition to the U6SA bylaws.

add this to the above post. ***I should have said that if a track and racers under the u6sa rules allow something other and a non-local shows up to run under the u6sa rules, then the track and locals would revert back to the u6sa rules or the non-local accept any deviation.****

Just for the sake of understanding, pj91 was allowed to run the mfi at his track according to what that track and racers agreed to do. PJ91 and the track were blasted for being outside the rules of the u6sa. We don't know all of the story, but if a non-local showed up to race and had an issue with the mfi, I would assume PJ91 would accept a handicap if offered, race for fun, or sit the night out. Nevertheless, if a track and present racers agree to deviate from the rules without harming anyone following the rules, they should have the right.

As for the intent of the u6sa and saving money, put it in writing (the saving money is in the grey area of the bylaws - hahaha). And yet it was mentioned from some of the players opposing mfi that mfi would cost more money - meaning u6sa rules should not allow mfi (or aftermarket efi) because of driving up the cost to race.

again said with a smile

add this to the above post. ***I should have said that if a track and racers under the u6sa rules allow something other and a non-local shows up to run under the u6sa rules, then the track and locals would revert back to the u6sa rules or the non-local accept any deviation.****

Just for the sake of understanding, pj91 was allowed to run the mfi at his track according to what that track and racers agreed to do. PJ91 and the track was blasted for being outside the rules of the u6sa. We don't know all of the story, but if a non-local showed up to race and had an issue with the mfi, I would assume PJ91 would accept a handicap if offered, race for fun, or sit the night out. Nevertheless, if a track and present racers agree to deviate from the rules without harming anyone following the rules, they should have the right.

As for the intent of the u6sa and saving money, put it in writing (the saving money is in the grey area of the bylaws - hahaha). And yet it was mentioned from some of the players opposing mfi that mfi would cost more money - meaning u6sa rules should not allow mfi (or aftermarket efi) because of driving up the cost to race.

again said with a smile

for the record.... i offered to not get paid not be scored....etc at several other tracks i was ok with that....

and in response to all your gripes about airport not following u6sa.... Mike Dicely personally told me if I had found any track that would let me run this year but were concerned about their u6sa status to have them call him.... as they(u6sa) would consider it a test until the vote in the fall was done....


HOW DO WE VOTE ON SOMETHING THAT DOESN'T EVEN EXIST ON THE MARKET YET?


seems like everyone knows everything.....but its more like a lot know a little.... vote however you guys feel you need to I AM FINE EITHER WAY:D




happy posting..... you guys should put this thread on dr phil three little letters get the wheels turning.... M F I

So touchy.

And for the record, I was refering to the disregard of the bladder rule, which is in black and white.

The U6SA was founded on the principle of perserving the 600 class. To keep the 600 class competitive and to keep the cost of racing at a level that people can compete. It is not the responsibilty of the U6SA to make it affordable for everyone to race. The U6SA is a cross section of our class. as with anytime you have 30, 40 50 people together discussing the same issues there are some that will agree and some that will disagree. Some will leave happy some not so. What everyone has to ask themselves when it comes to rules, suggestions, direction of the class is what is best for the 600 class. Not what i want personally or what will fit my plan but what is best for the class. The MFI debate and the GUTS debate has been two of the most hottley contested things since i have been involved in this class. With the GUTS box for example the only part of my discussion anyone has focused on is that i'm behind wanting to "outlaw" the guts. that is absolutley not the case in fact i want to allow the GUTS but i want to allow other racing systems that are just the same as the GUTS. The MFI debate has been framed as a conspiracy to keep anyone other then Guhl Motors or Hyper from coming into the injection market in this area. I'm sure Mike and Don would be flattered to have people think they wield so much authority in this class. the biggest problem with the MFI is the aftermarket throttle bodies and the lack of any kind of data and the fact that i personally think it was presented to all of us very selfishly. Not trying to sell us on the merits but trying to paint us as unreasonable and just Hyper and Guhl puppets. when it's time for me to cast my vote in the U6SA i base my decision on a couple things. will it make the racing better and is the cost reasonable vs the return. as far as the MFI goes this is what we know.
#1 the fuel pump runs off the water pump shaft
#2 the water pump is electric
#3 the cost is $2500-$5000
Advantages- if motor shuts off so does the fuel Big +
loose some of the wiring Big+
some would consider less Dyno tunes a plus. i'm on the fence about that you will have to manage barometric pressure, humidity, temperature at the track so is that a plus don't know

What we don't know
Performance..... is there a big advantage? if not then i would lean more in favor but if it's a big horsepower advantage then probably not. having a few people being able to convert to the "latest and greatest" isn't good for the competition on this class.

now i know everyone will say about the adjustable shocks, sway bars, etc and those things can always be put on the table for a vote. no one ever does though. same as the spec tire there is a poll on the board right now but the funny thing is it's not even up for a vote this year.

Last year in the Pro Series i got so much grief over the spec tire rule and you know who it came from? not the guys that ran my series regularly it came from the hosting track regulars. the guys that don't travel are the ones that were the loudest against the tire rule. guys like myself who travel lot would love to see a spec tire. i would love to only have to carry three or 4 tires instead of 20.

The U6SA is about perserving the 600 class. it's a work in progress and sometimes you have to take a step back to go forward.... get involved be part of the solution not part of the problem.

The U6SA was founded on the principle of perserving the 600 class. To keep the 600 class competitive and to keep the cost of racing at a level that people can compete. It is not the responsibilty of the U6SA to make it affordable for everyone to race. The U6SA is a cross section of our class. as with anytime you have 30, 40 50 people together discussing the same issues there are some that will agree and some that will disagree. Some will leave happy some not so. What everyone has to ask themselves when it comes to rules, suggestions, direction of the class is what is best for the 600 class. Not what i want personally or what will fit my plan but what is best for the class. The MFI debate and the GUTS debate has been two of the most hottley contested things since i have been involved in this class. With the GUTS box for example the only part of my discussion anyone has focused on is that i'm behind wanting to "outlaw" the guts. that is absolutley not the case in fact i want to allow the GUTS but i want to allow other racing systems that are just the same as the GUTS. The MFI debate has been framed as a conspiracy to keep anyone other then Guhl Motors or Hyper from coming into the injection market in this area. I'm sure Mike and Don would be flattered to have people think they wield so much authority in this class. the biggest problem with the MFI is the aftermarket throttle bodies and the lack of any kind of data and the fact that i personally think it was presented to all of us very selfishly. Not trying to sell us on the merits but trying to paint us as unreasonable and just Hyper and Guhl puppets. when it's time for me to cast my vote in the U6SA i base my decision on a couple things. will it make the racing better and is the cost reasonable vs the return. as far as the MFI goes this is what we know.
#1 the fuel pump runs off the water pump shaft
#2 the water pump is electric
#3 the cost is $2500-$5000
Advantages- if motor shuts off so does the fuel Big +
loose some of the wiring Big+
some would consider less Dyno tunes a plus. i'm on the fence about that you will have to manage barometric pressure, humidity, temperature at the track so is that a plus don't know

What we don't know
Performance..... is there a big advantage? if not then i would lean more in favor but if it's a big horsepower advantage then probably not. having a few people being able to convert to the "latest and greatest" isn't good for the competition on this class.

now i know everyone will say about the adjustable shocks, sway bars, etc and those things can always be put on the table for a vote. no one ever does though. same as the spec tire there is a poll on the board right now but the funny thing is it's not even up for a vote this year.

Last year in the Pro Series i got so much grief over the spec tire rule and you know who it came from? not the guys that ran my series regularly it came from the hosting track regulars. the guys that don't travel are the ones that were the loudest against the tire rule. guys like myself who travel lot would love to see a spec tire. i would love to only have to carry three or 4 tires instead of 20.

The U6SA is about perserving the 600 class. it's a work in progress and sometimes you have to take a step back to go forward.... get involved be part of the solution not part of the problem.

wayne... i didnt know i was being selfish lol.... but at the end of the day the original rules had no provisions for mfi.... and it didnt say you couldnt.... when it was posed to the clarification board it was stated you could as long as you run stock electrics... again this was posted about 100 times i guess you only want to read and reiterate what suits your posts... the lack of the boards knowledge on mfi when they made the decision to allow it with factory electrics shouldnt be my problem and to me seemed like a cover.... because i have yet to see the rule that i went against in the 2010 original rules..... I asked you to point out which rule i went against and you never answered that in another MFI debate post.....

we are here now almost close to voting and to be honest i m wore out with all of the back and forth of cost and gains and throttle bodies.... yes i dont mind arguing my view point and i try to see it from other peoples views... no this isnt a slander against don or mike at all but i call it like i see it.... if this vote goes down the road of stock tb's mike and don will be the only guys who will be in the mfi business on the east coast... and everyone will be in the same boat as they are now.... limited choice can i make an injection on stock tb's sure its only money.... but more money more time more research... there is no current stock tb system ready for sale as of today .... don has one he is working on but im sure you cant buy it tomorrow... and as getting involved and being part of the solution I am.... by shedding new light on the options that are out there....Guess I got tired of seeing efi problems....although it's a great system I dont think our use is the best environment

at the end of the day what would you like to know? are you upset that i wont dyno my package ? you have one kidcomplaining im not being fair by only offering my injection.... he has no clue how easy it for mike or don to supply a motor and for me to hook up my system.... but yet he runs his mouth like he knows it to an exact science like he called me out and got me like i am hiding something..far from it pal......i choose not to dyno my motor or my car.... what is wrong with that....? i dont have to prove anything to anyone... I FOUND A GRAY AREA IN THE RULES AND EVERYONE WENT BONKERS.... if you dont like it or think its a bad idea then choose to vote no it wont hurt my feelings.... but to keep going back and forth is really a waste of everyones time..... i like how you made it simple price plus' minus' etc... screw it lets say it gains 20hp.... so either we vote it in and make hyper and guhl concoct their own mfi systems to catch up to it or we dont vote it in and mike and don dont have any competition... thats really the simplest form of it..... yes or no i think enough has been posted whether its true or not.... for everyone to make a decision.... i dont like how this is creating tension with other people and i go to racing to have fun... not to have animosity with people because they dont like the dope im pushing.....both systems have ups and downs... pick your poison and be happy and race:cool:


edit.... i havent framed anything to be a conspiracy....i simply just wanna run my car that i spent money to build that was legal by the rules when i built it.... if you cant see that then i cannot help you..

It's sad to see that MFI is going threw the problems that it is. It's only been around on these type of eng. for 20 yrs. here in Pa. & powers Midgets, 358,360 & 410 Sprints all over the country. Did anybody call the three MFI manufactures & ask them what kind of HP they make on a stock 600 on ALK. Also why don't you just make a rule that all throttle bodies got to be the same MM as stock. It's already been said said that PJ 91s are. It's a shame that it's a problem because it was brought right in front of you. What about all the stuff that goes on behind you that you don't even look at & IS. :(

The U6SA is about perserving the 600 class. it's a work in progress and sometimes you have to take a step back to go forward.... get involved be part of the solution not part of the problem.

Wow, thats a pretty smart quote. I'm impressed it came from a giant douche!

lol, j/k rayne man :D

at the end of the day what would you like to know? are you upset that i wont dyno my package ? you have one kidcomplaining im not being fair by only offering my injection.... he has no clue how easy it for mike or don to supply a motor and for me to hook up my system.... but yet he runs his mouth like he knows it to an exact science like he called me out and got me like i am hiding something..far from it pal......i choose not to dyno my motor or my car.... what is wrong with that....? i dont have to prove anything to anyone...

I never said I knew everything about MFI. I simply said that to change an engine that is currently running EFI to MFI requires more than just taking the EFI injection off and putting the MFI injection on. Like everyone else, I am just trying to gather data on MFI. I am trying to gather data so that when racers at my track ask me about it, I hopefully am able to answer them correctly.

It is not about how easy it is for Mike or Don to supply an engine. Why should they have to supply a motor? They are not the ones proposing MFI be allowed.

If I had a ready-to-go Yamaha I would gladly offer my engine and car for you to install your system on for a dyno run. However, I don't have a ready-to-go Yamaha, I have Kawasaki.

If you would like to talk about this more feel free to give me a call. My phone number is available in many posts throughout the forum.

Also, to get a true comparison of how the MFI compares to the EFI both systems should be dynoed on the same engine. It would not be fair to either injection to compare engine A that is running EFI to engine B that is running MFI.

Engine A should be dynoed using EFI. Then, engine A converted and dynoed again using MFI. That would give a true comparison of EFI to MFI.

Also, to get a true comparison of how the MFI compares to the EFI both systems should be dynoed on the same engine. It would not be fair to either injection to compare engine A that is running EFI to engine B that is running MFI.

Engine A should be dynoed using EFI. Then, engine A converted and dynoed again using MFI. That would give a true comparison of EFI to MFI.

I agree Zach, and very shortly all of you will have this info.... courtesy of Mr Engler and Mr Dicely.....Moving forward

Is PJ51 the only person actually fighting for the MFI rule to pass? I don't see anyone else standing up on a soap box, advocating that MFI is the way to go.

The MFI deal is going to DESTROY the 600 micros. In an economy that is already killing most people's racing opportunities and car counts are at record lows; we are going to make everyone spend $2-5,000 to be competitive? That is insane! There is barely full fields at Linda's Speedway anymore.

Noone at my home track is for this and there is already talk of people selling out because of this rule, including our own cars. There is no point in putting the low budget guys at a disadvantage for the sake of teams with endless pockets to steal undeserving wins.

If MFI is allowed, then aftermarket ECUs such as Motec will have to be passed as well. This would totally blow the price of 600s out of control. There is no way this rule is good. It is taking away from the small guys that can take an engine off of a bike, bolt it on the car and run up front just because they can drive and can set up a car.

This is like micro racing though.. Take a perfectly good thing and mess it up!!

Is PJ51 the only person actually fighting for the MFI rule to pass? I don't see anyone else standing up on a soap box, advocating that MFI is the way to go.

The MFI deal is going to DESTROY the 600 micros. In an economy that is already killing most people's racing opportunities and car counts are at record lows; we are going to make everyone spend $2-5,000 to be competitive? That is insane! There is barely full fields at Linda's Speedway anymore.

Noone at my home track is for this and there is already talk of people selling out because of this rule, including our own cars. There is no point in putting the low budget guys at a disadvantage for the sake of teams with endless pockets to steal undeserving wins.

If MFI is allowed, then aftermarket ECUs such as Motec will have to be passed as well. This would totally blow the price of 600s out of control. There is no way this rule is good. It is taking away from the small guys that can take an engine off of a bike, bolt it on the car and run up front just because they can drive and can set up a car.

This is like micro racing though.. Take a perfectly good thing and mess it up!!

yeah what he said:cool:

well from what i have seen so far and just coming from I-30 this past week it is not a performance advantage. having said that though i will say it is absolutley more expensive to install. the plumbing and fitting alone are in the neighborhood of $800.00. there has been problems with air in the water lines and the electric water pumps cavatating. in spite of lack of performance i am going to vote to not allow the MFI with aftermarket throttle bodies. i will however vote for the MFI to be used on stock throttle bodies. i am doing this for one reason. If we allow aftermarket throttle bodies on MFI we will also have to do so on EFI and that is a road no one wants to go down. the Guhl MFI on stock bodies at least on the dyno were similar to EFI in horsepower and torque. If Engler and who ever else thinks there is a market for this system in our class i PA they will have to adjust. I would think with what i have seen on the dyno and talking to racers in arkansas last week they would be better served to look at adapting to the stock bodies...JMO

well from what i have seen so far and just coming from I-30 this past week it is not a performance advantage. having said that though i will say it is absolutley more expensive to install. the plumbing and fitting alone are in the neighborhood of $800.00. there has been problems with air in the water lines and the electric water pumps cavatating. in spite of lack of performance i am going to vote to not allow the MFI with aftermarket throttle bodies. i will however vote for the MFI to be used on stock throttle bodies. i am doing this for one reason. If we allow aftermarket throttle bodies on MFI we will also have to do so on EFI and that is a road no one wants to go down. the Guhl MFI on stock bodies at least on the dyno were similar to EFI in horsepower and torque. If Engler and who ever else thinks there is a market for this system in our class i PA they will have to adjust. I would think with what i have seen on the dyno and talking to racers in arkansas last week they would be better served to look at adapting to the stock bodies...JMO

still waiting on mike to post his results.... from the kawi tests... dont know why they arent up for everyone to see.... and also trying to get an r6 done before the meeting....


so now its back to a price issue wayne? before you were claiming a high hp advantage and thats why you were against it..... which is it? racing isnt cheap and $ 800 in fittings? Aero quip push lok fittings and hoses arent that expensive... Air in the water lines? Have had no issues with mine and nor have I heard of any others


when we dont have expensive rollers with all the bells and whistles then you can talk about the price of things..... lol cant have it both ways kids

p.s. im burned out form all this mfi.... stuff lol can we just go race

mike its the comparsion of price vs horsepower. the engine on these cars is the single biggest equalizer. the fuel injection / carbs are part of the engine. what i said before there were any dyno numbers is what was being pitched by the people that have or are selling the MFI is that it will add 7-15 hp. i was told that by racers in the midwest and i was also told that by the people selling the systems. what they are selling and the reality of the MFI aren't the same at least from what i have witnessed on the track and what i have been told from dyno numbers.

ok so now i am confident that the MFI with aftermarket aren't a huge performance advantage in it's current configuration. the other part of the equation is the throttle bodies. Can we allow the MFI to have aftermarket throttle bodies without allowing EFI the same liberty? i personally think it will open up a can of worms if we accept the MFI and allow EFI top go aftermarket throttle bodies. there is and will be more MFI systems for stock throttle bodies so i think at least for now anyone with an interest in that type of system can be satisfied.

it's not as simple as what does it cost it has to be a compromise of cost vs reliabilty vs viability of the class. The cost of cars argument just isn't sound and this is why. you absolutley don't have to have adjustable shocks, titanium bolts, carbon fiber bodies, sway bars, or a new tire on for each race to win. and you also don't need a "built engine" to win and that is exactly why i think the rules are pretty good where they are. when the U6SA was formed the class had already gone thru more then a few changes with engines and fuel delivery. the organization is doing the best it can for what it is and it's not going to go in the direction that everyone thinks it should go but that is just the way it is.And i also believe at the end of the day the best interest of the class will be served

im against anything that raises the cost , and i see this doing just that ,

i am quite new to the sport but i have acouple of questions...first,, who are the other teams that are in favor (or want to run the MFI) of allowing MFI?? and second, ex can you refer me to their posts so i get try to understand better this whole MFI issue??? i believe manual setting in the fuel system are not easily done by those that are not really familiar with the theory and doesn't air temp and air density factor heavily on how rich/lean you want to run the engine???? track length and max rpm's are also factors ....???? expense is always a consideration for many of us,,,but do we really need this rule change and will it hurt or help the 600 class for next year????? that is a big part of the decsion that needs to be carefully considered.... how about just freezing the rules as is for two years???????

mike its the comparsion of price vs horsepower. the engine on these cars is the single biggest equalizer. the fuel injection / carbs are part of the engine. what i said before there were any dyno numbers is what was being pitched by the people that have or are selling the MFI is that it will add 7-15 hp. i was told that by racers in the midwest and i was also told that by the people selling the systems. what they are selling and the reality of the MFI aren't the same at least from what i have witnessed on the track and what i have been told from dyno numbers.

ok so now i am confident that the MFI with aftermarket aren't a huge performance advantage in it's current configuration. the other part of the equation is the throttle bodies. Can we allow the MFI to have aftermarket throttle bodies without allowing EFI the same liberty? i personally think it will open up a can of worms if we accept the MFI and allow EFI top go aftermarket throttle bodies. there is and will be more MFI systems for stock throttle bodies so i think at least for now anyone with an interest in that type of system can be satisfied.

it's not as simple as what does it cost it has to be a compromise of cost vs reliabilty vs viability of the class. The cost of cars argument just isn't sound and this is why. you absolutley don't have to have adjustable shocks, titanium bolts, carbon fiber bodies, sway bars, or a new tire on for each race to win. and you also don't need a "built engine" to win and that is exactly why i think the rules are pretty good where they are. when the U6SA was formed the class had already gone thru more then a few changes with engines and fuel delivery. the organization is doing the best it can for what it is and it's not going to go in the direction that everyone thinks it should go but that is just the way it is.And i also believe at the end of the day the best interest of the class will be served

Well to be clear.... the rule isnt allowing MFI to have aftermarket throttle bodies.... its allowing the throttle bodies that come with the system.... and the one system that was running stock tb's was taken off due to poor performance.... so as of now there is no correct mfi conversion... maybe in time yes .....

I agree there is alot of things you dont need to win.... but I wanted a choice of simplicity.... which mfi granted me that.... you know the dyno numbers that mike saw........I'm just kinda upset that they weren't posted immediately and still aren't...timing is(was at this point) of the essence... at least IMHO

put on carbs , if fuel injection really is that much better they would not have made the r6 guys turn the ecu rpm limit down

mike the MFI with stock wasn't taken off for a lack of performance. Brock was high point man at coles county speedway with MFI on stock bodies. there were other issues other then lack of performance. i will the let 1Z team elaborate if they like. i don't have a dog in that fight.

mike the MFI with stock wasn't taken off for a lack of performance. Brock was high point man at coles county speedway with MFI on stock bodies. there were other issues other then lack of performance. i will the let 1Z team elaborate if they like. i don't have a dog in that fight.

I already got the scoop....hence why I posted the info...and the source couldn't get any better.... I don't post things that aren't fact.... unlike some people in this place:eek:

Wayne... if this MFI passes on stock TB's I wont run stock throttle bodies.... its too much of the same mess with efi.....and I still think there would be an issue with the throttle by wire butterflys and I'm not up for some " Rube Goldberg" conversion on....:p

Wayne... if this MFI passes on stock TB's I wont run stock throttle bodies.... its too much of the same mess with efi.....and I still think there would be an issue with the throttle by wire butterflys and I'm not up for some " Rube Goldberg" conversion on....:p

Well that would leave you with carbs or efi.

I have a ???? how is it that there are after market things that just come right on in with no ???? asked. I've seen several items that cost 500 to 2000 $ & are a perf. gain. Some of these items if you don't have them your going to be at a loss. Everything was just fine before them. Now with them you just put the price of a car up 2500 $ plus then you wonder why car count is down. That's just one of the reasons. Now you come to MFI & everybody goes off the deep end. Frist off i don't understand why it wasn't looked at yrs. ago before EFI was even here. Now that it has come why don't you get the facts frist before your digging a hole to put it in. You talk about cost but if you buy a eng. with no carbs. or EFI how much is the cost differents then just a thought. I think everybody should take a chill pill & look at the facts frist then make a DECISION. JMO :)

I have a ???? how is it that there are after market things that just come right on in with no ???? asked. I've seen several items that cost 500 to 2000 $ & are a perf. gain. Some of these items if you don't have them your going to be at a loss. Everything was just fine before them. Now with them you just put the price of a car up 2500 $ plus then you wonder why car count is down. That's just one of the reasons. Now you come to MFI & everybody goes off the deep end. Frist off i don't understand why it wasn't looked at yrs. ago before EFI was even here. Now that it has come why don't you get the facts frist before your digging a hole to put it in. You talk about cost but if you buy a eng. with no carbs. or EFI how much is the cost differents then just a thought. I think everybody should take a chill pill & look at the facts frist then make a DECISION. JMO :)

thanks for this briliant post.... everyone seems to throw around un verified info which WILL sway the masses and when its proven false.... its " oh sorry thats what I heard" ....if people actually looked at this from how you describe it then it is no different then anything else.... be it shocks efi sway bars carbon etc.... MFI WAS AROUND LONG BEFORE EFI JUST LIKE CARBS AND TO ME SHOULDN'T EVEN BE AN ISSUE...

I tested an Engler fuel injection system (MFI) last week before I went to Arkansas. Tim Engler worked with me until late into the night to get the system right and to solve any problems. He is a very knowledgeable guy who makes an impeccably machined and designed product.

After using up all the time I had available before I had to leave on my trip, my final test results were a little more torque and a little less horsepower than my EFI system. Tim had some other suggestions for me to try to get more top end out of it, but I was out of time.

This test was on a Kawasaki 636, the results may be different on an R6.

I just wanted to share this with the community before rumors start (or maybe it is too late).

I tested an Engler fuel injection system (MFI) last week before I went to Arkansas. Tim Engler worked with me until late into the night to get the system right and to solve any problems. He is a very knowledgeable guy who makes an impeccably machined and designed product.

After using up all the time I had available before I had to leave on my trip, my final test results were a little more torque and a little less horsepower than my EFI system. Tim had some other suggestions for me to try to get more top end out of it, but I was out of time.

This test was on a Kawasaki 636, the results may be different on an R6.

I just wanted to share this with the community before rumors start (or maybe it is too late).

Well, rumors are already out there. I heard rumors of Mr. Guhl saying that he got an extra 15 HP out of a mechanical fuel injection during his visit to Arkansas. Hard to believe you can get an extra 15 HP out of doing any one thing to a 600cc engine but its a rumor going around!

Why is there no polls for the rule proposals coming up? Why can the racers not vote on these things (like a democracy usually entails)?

It is the responsibility of the track rep to get the rule proposals to the racers at each track. I know myself, Rick Stief, Tim Dietz and Ken Miller all handed out forms at our respective tracks. If your track rep isn't doing anything then get a new one!

Well, rumors are already out there. I heard rumors of Mr. Guhl saying that he got an extra 15 HP out of a mechanical fuel injection during his visit to Arkansas. Hard to believe you can get an extra 15 HP out of doing any one thing to a 600cc engine but its a rumor going around!

Why is there no polls for the rule proposals coming up? Why can the racers not vote on these things (like a democracy usually entails)?

more of the same nonsense:cool: why do you post stuff that has no truth in it.... don is working on MFI and I am sure with his abilities he will get it 100% in time.... but you are incorrect yet again in your info I gave you my phone number so you can have all your questions and rumors answered.... you chose not to call... so that just leads me to believe you are on here to stir the pot with your BS.....

more of the same nonsense:cool: why do you post stuff that has no truth in it.... don is working on MFI and I am sure with his abilities he will get it 100% in time.... but you are incorrect yet again in your info I gave you my phone number so you can have all your questions and rumors answered.... you chose not to call... so that just leads me to believe you are on here to stir the pot of BS.....

I am incorrect in what way? I stated clearly that it was a RUMOR. I have not heard of this myself. IF he is getting 15 extra HP out of an MFI system, THEN IT SHOULD NOT BE LEGAL! SO I hope that he actually is getting that 15 HP extra! I am not discrediting Don by any means, because I do think with a little R&D that Mike Dicely, Don Guhl, and many others will be getting a lot bigger numbers with MFI over the EFI. Even with Dicely getting comparable numbers with the MFI on the first couple pulls can only mean that this system will be perfected and eventually be better than MFI. MEANING that the MFI is a better system and for anyone to keep up they have to buy the system and spend another $2,000 plus. Making everyone change IS NOT KEEPING THE COST DOWN!

It is the responsibility of the track rep to get the rule proposals to the racers at each track. I know myself, Rick Stief, Tim Dietz and Ken Miller all handed out forms at our respective tracks. If your track rep isn't doing anything then get a new one!

We were not given any forms however we have voiced our opinions at a meeting to our representative.

With the car counts at an all time low a lot of racers are not at the track so even if forms are being handed out, these people can't get these forms! These are the people the rules need to be adjusted for! A general message board poll would help generalize what racers are thinking. Anything, something, to get opinions of a wider range of racers. U6SA is becoming a Totalitarian dictatorship allocating what the top seats want and not what the low budget teams that this organization was supposed to represent.

What i am about to say has nothing to do with the MFI, so:

Simply put, your rep is not doing his job. there are forms available on the
U6SA board, I POSTED THEM THERE do that ANYONE could Plagarize them and use them without having to put forth effort of their own!
Zach, Michael, Tim And myself are trying to lead by example with how we are doing things. Why not give it a try yourself.

There will be a vote, racers will be represented, if your track is not in the loop it is YOUR TRACK AND YOUR REPS Responsibility, and Failure, not everyone elses.

Frankly I am tired of all the b@llshit lately. All that anyone can do is piss and moan at the few who actually do try to help out and make a difference.

Looking forward to the vote so this can all be overwith. I am sure PJ91 even agrees with me on that. :-)

what i am about to say has nothing to do with the mfi, so:

Simply put, your rep is not doing his job. There are forms available on the
u6sa board, i posted them there do that anyone could plagarize them and use them without having to put forth effort of their own!
Zach, michael, tim and myself are trying to lead by example with how we are doing things. Why not give it a try yourself.

There will be a vote, racers will be represented, if your track is not in the loop it is your track and your reps responsibility, and failure, not everyone elses.

Frankly i am tired of all the b@llshit lately. All that anyone can do is piss and moan at the few who actually do try to help out and make a difference.

Looking forward to the vote so this can all be overwith. I am sure pj91 even agrees with me on that. :-)

amen ricky!

What i am about to say has nothing to do with the MFI, so:

Simply put, your rep is not doing his job. there are forms available on the
U6SA board, I POSTED THEM THERE do that ANYONE could Plagarize them and use them without having to put forth effort of their own!
Zach, Michael, Tim And myself are trying to lead by example with how we are doing things. Why not give it a try yourself.

There will be a vote, racers will be represented, if your track is not in the loop it is YOUR TRACK AND YOUR REPS Responsibility, and Failure, not everyone elses.

Frankly I am tired of all the b@llshit lately. All that anyone can do is piss and moan at the few who actually do try to help out and make a difference.

Looking forward to the vote so this can all be overwith. I am sure PJ91 even agrees with me on that. :-)

Rick,

I appreciate you, Mike, and all the others that are putting forth effort. I searched the forum and I cannot find what forms you are referring to, I would think that if we had official ballets/forms that they would be stuck to the top of a forum and easily accessible. In addition where would the forms be sent to? I would take part in getting these forms to racers down here. I am putting forth the effort to take part but we are 500 miles away, it is not that easy to be in the loop. Our tech guy is a retard and his only concern is teching me every week. I would help but I have never seen these voting forms..

CAN BE FOUND IN ANY OF THESE THREADS

http://www.microracing.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22032

http://www.microracing.com/forum/showthread.php?p=70894#post70894

http://www.microracing.com/forum/showthread.php?p=70846#post70846

TM DIETZ AND ZACH LIGHT HAVE HAD SIMILAR POSTS.
HOPE THIS HELPS. THE TRACKS RACERS REP IS RESPONSIBLE FOR REPRESENTING THE RACERS AND DOING THIS FOR THEM.

Rick,

I appreciate you, Mike, and all the others that are putting forth effort. I searched the forum and I cannot find what forms you are referring to, I would think that if we had official ballets/forms that they would be stuck to the top of a forum and easily accessible. In addition where would the forms be sent to? I would take part in getting these forms to racers down here. I am putting forth the effort to take part but we are 500 miles away, it is not that easy to be in the loop. Our tech guy is a retard and his only concern is teching me every week. I would help but I have never seen these voting forms..

They are not that hard to find. Just take a little time to look...

The one Mike Dicely originally posted...
http://www.microracing.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21485

The one posted by Rick Steif...
http://www.microracing.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22032

Everything must go through your track rep for voting. For example, at Linda's I handed out all the forms and told everyone to vote for what they wanted and then give the forms back to me in two weeks. They did this and so now I will be voting in the favor of the majority (for Linda's) when I vote at the fall meeting.

The problem with simply putting a poll on the forum is... how do we know who is voting for it? Anyone can just sign in and vote, even if they have nothing to do with the 600 class.






P.S. - Wow Rick, took the both of us about 15 minutes to find the posts on here with the forms. :D:eek::D:eek::D:eek:

Everything must go through your track rep for voting. For example, at Linda's I handed out all the forms and told everyone to vote for what they wanted and then give the forms back to me in two weeks. They did this and so now I will be voting in the favor of the majority (for Linda's) when I vote at the fall meeting.

The problem with simply putting a poll on the forum is... how do we know who is voting for it? Anyone can just sign in and vote, even if they have nothing to do with the 600 class.






P.S. - Wow Rick, took the both of us about 15 minutes to find the posts on here with the forms. :D:eek::D:eek::D:eek:


Good for you!! You can find a post that YOU POSTED! Congrats, you are so God-gifted talented Zach!! Sorry for asking! I just feel that if these are the official forms for voting that they should be more easily found like sticky posted to the top of the forum like the rule proposals. My bad..

There is a lot of technology out there, I am not saying it has to be a simple poll that anyone can post on any number of times. Just saying SOMETHING to try to include a wider range of people, especially those sitting at home. I apologize for trying to include the little guys!

Yea my track rep (assuming it is the tech guy) is not doing his job. But I am offering to take this on myself. I would generate a spreadsheet of the tallied results etc if that is what it takes.

Good for you!! You can find a post that YOU POSTED! Congrats, you are so God-gifted talented Zach!! Sorry for asking! I just feel that if these are the official forms for voting that they should be more easily found like sticky posted to the top of the forum like the rule proposals. My bad..

There is a lot of technology out there, I am not saying it has to be a simple poll that anyone can post on any number of times. Just saying SOMETHING to try to include a wider range of people, especially those sitting at home. I apologize for trying to include the little guys!

Yea my track rep (assuming it is the tech guy) is not doing his job. But I am offering to take this on myself. I would generate a spreadsheet of the tallied results etc if that is what it takes.


Rick,

I appreciate you, Mike, and all the others that are putting forth effort. I searched the forum and I cannot find what forms you are referring to, I would think that if we had official ballets/forms that they would be stuck to the top of a forum and easily accessible. In addition where would the forms be sent to? I would take part in getting these forms to racers down here. I am putting forth the effort to take part but we are 500 miles away, it is not that easy to be in the loop. Our tech guy is a retard and his only concern is teching me every week. I would help but I have never seen these voting forms..







well with the way you demean people....calling them retards etc...I dont think you will garner any respect from any racer with the way you conduct yourself.....maybe you should stick to the XBOX while sitting home instead of running your mouth here :eek:

well with the way you demean people....calling them retards etc...I dont think you will garner any respect from any racer with the way you conduct yourself.....maybe you should stick to the XBOX while sitting home instead of running your mouth here :eek:

And the pot calls the kettle black.. In regards to me disrespecting the tech guy, it is not just my opinion it is a general collection of gathered responses from other racers as well. We do not have these forms therefore he is obviously not doing his job.

You hit who I am spot on Mr. PJ, you are the man!

And the pot calls the kettle black.. In regards to me disrespecting the tech guy, it is not just my opinion it is a general collection of gathered responses from other racers as well. We do not have these forms therefore he is obviously not doing his job.

You hit who I am spot on Mr. PJ, you are the man!

lol wasnt trying and dont care who you are.. where do you race? East Lincoln?

Terry, each track gets a Racers Rep Vote and a Track rep vote. The racers need to Elect someone to represnt them, the track is not responsible for that.
Just to help make things more clear. Each of us Reps was elected by our fellow racers. Some tracks are more and some are less involved in that process i guess. I feel the racers vote is the most important. Good luck.

terry if you race at east lincoln... i am pretty sure there was someone on the u6sa conf call......you may wanna check with him about all of the proposals

Well you all are "on the board" so you should be able to tell me who the track reps are if there are any! ? Keith Frye is our tech guy and the only person I know that is "on the inside" of U6SA. On the sticky forum post of track reps, I believe we have a ? mark. I would have no problem representing our drivers as a driver rep and handing out these ballets and tallying them as I said prior.

I'm not on here fighting what I want. Just trying to make it relevant that a lot of people are being missed on these issues, most of which are the people U6SA organization was created. The U6SA in my opinion was outstanding this year. The rules were of the best I have ever seen them and it seemed that the playing field was very even. It is hard to imagine the rules deviating as much as they are in this proposal.

Again I would be the track rep for EL if there is none, I am sure I have the respect of my fellow racers to take this part (if I am not, I will not). It would be a lot of help if I could get the original document so that "Bridgeport" and "Rick Stief" are not at the top of the page though.

Well you all are "on the board" so you should be able to tell me who the track reps are if there are any! ? Keith Frye is our tech guy and the only person I know that is "on the inside" of U6SA. On the sticky forum post of track reps, I believe we have a ? mark. I would have no problem representing our drivers as a driver rep and handing out these ballets and tallying them as I said prior.

I'm not on here fighting what I want. Just trying to make it relevant that a lot of people are being missed on these issues, most of which are the people U6SA organization was created. The U6SA in my opinion was outstanding this year. The rules were of the best I have ever seen them and it seemed that the playing field was very even. It is hard to imagine the rules deviating as much as they are in this proposal.

Again I would be the track rep for EL if there is none, I am sure I have the respect of my fellow racers to take this part (if I am not, I will not). It would be a lot of help if I could get the original document so that "Bridgeport" and "Rick Stief" are not at the top of the page though.

contact mike dicely he can tell you exactly who and what is down for your track.... and also can add u as track rep

copy and paste it into word and change it to your tracks information
or email me what you want it to say and i will change it and post it on here for you or email it back to you.
or cut the top off 1st and then make copies. However you want, i am willing to help.

my email address is rickstief@hotmail.com

Terry,

Here is the form I created. You are welcome to use it if you want.