Attached is a list of the 2012 rule proposals. We can add to this list or modify this list before 9/14/2011.

Tracks, make sure your track reps receive these rule proposals and speak to the drivers about how they want the rep to vote at the annual meeting.

In the proposals is the addition of rules for a new additional class. This new class is just another option for tracks to run, tracks have a choice of which class to promote or run both classes. It is a popular belief that the current class is very, very competitive with many “high dollar” teams. This has forced some out of the class and has prevented many from coming into the class.

In my travels all across the country (and world) racing 600cc sprints has open my eyes to the fact that the “A” class (a left over name from the NMMA) is by far more popular than the “Muili” or “Outlaw” class. Tracks in other parts of the country will have as many as five 600cc classes running on the same night. The fact that the “A” class and non wing “A” class is so popular emphasizes the fact that people like to race for fun and not have to spend a lot of money to do it. The original vision for the U6SA rules was to provide a set of rules that would keep the costs down. Although the costs are less than a true “Outlaw” class, fierce competition and the desire to have every possible advantage to win has driven perception of costs up.

The proposed Sportsman 600cc Class, being a true 600cc limit class with many cost control rules in place will make this a very popular class for budget racers. Rules such as a 600cc limit, 50 Durometer tire rule, wing adjuster only rule, stock pistons, no cutting of head, no R6R Yamaha engines, etc (see rule list) will cut cost considerably. In addition to the cost cutting rules, the “high dollar” teams will stay in the 637cc class and help keep perceived costs down in the Sportsman 600cc class.

My hope is that this new class will be approved and that a few tracks will take on the new class keeping or eliminating the 636cc class. Over time I am confident that car counts in the Sportsman class will grow to be higher car counts than what we are getting now for the 637cc class. I also believe that over time there will be plenty of cars to support both classes.

Non wing racing is becoming more popular in the PA area with all tracks running wingless are experiencing highly increased car counts this year.

Please give me your feed back, Thank You,

Mike Dicely
U6SA Director

It would be nice to repair or alter cranks because they are expensive,and eliminate all bottom end tech.

I am running a stock R6R now with only a wing adjuster. The rule change will require me to either buy a different motor or put me in the 637 class without the extra displacement or additional adjustments. I've been hanging on waiting for the discontinuation or phase out of the 636 motors. Now it's going to change again. This could put me out of business if I want to be competitive.

The idea of not allowing the R6R engine in the Sportsman class is to make it affordable. The R6R engine is the most expensive engine and it is a better engine than the other 600cc engines due to its HP and the RPM advantage. The R6R engine has proven to be as good as if not better than the Kawi 636 engine in the. So in your particular case, I think you would very much be in business in the 637 class.

Keep in mind that the rules for displacement are not going to change in the 637cc class, the engines that are '06 and newer model year must remain 600cc.

Mike: Sportsman class. 800# min How about no lighten of stock parts IE: flywheels, cranks, rods. Also most all cars have panhard adjusters. I would allow wing & panhard adjusters only. No cockpit adjustable shocks. Thanks Bob Sr.

Hey Mike, Where does this leave the R6R guys? We are underpowered to run with the 637's and banned from the Sportmans. Does the rest of the world ban the R6R in the A class? Or can we now be 637 cc's to run the new U6SA 637 class? You need to give one or the other and let the "big bad wolf" have an equal chance. How many wins do the R6R's have in the 636 class? What do you think the % is? 1% at most. You will just cause a lot of teams to park there stuff. You are allowing the Kawi's even more performance with aftermarket rods and more displacement, yet you tie the hands of the Yama teams. What do you think Rat? Are we screwed all the way around? I believe this is short sighted and should be reconsidered. Thanks for your time, Bryan

How about no adjusters period.Must run carbs only, no injection. I would say about 85 - 90% of the engine failures come from electronic injection. IE: stuck injectors, auto tune , ecu, etc: Stock ECU MUST REMAIN COMPLETELY STOCK and NO RACE BOX . This way there is no confusion in any way. After all how many people can check the stock ECU It seems to me that tracks see a low car count now, if you add a new 600cc class to the mix, I see a divided class and a boring class. there are too many tracks running the 600 class now and then there are tracks just running wingless 600. I don't see the added benefit to the new class proposed, other than the tire rule being beneficial.
Its hard enough to get a full field now for the tracks to pay a full purse. If the r6 Yammy goes, the Gsxr Suzuki should go as-well, I was told the GSXR 600 is very comparable to the R6.
Moose

i think the sportsman class is a bad idea considering the car counts for most of the tracks this year have been way off, splitting the classes will just hurt. Maybe eliminating cockpit adjusters in general besides wing would be a good idea to help save cost. They have gotten out of hand on some of the cars being sold today and can lose count as to how many are on cars. Plus I have a R6R so this class would alienate myself anyways.

For the longest time the micro classes in this area have always wanted to be different from those in the midwest and were quite fine with the classes we've had in place. Why the sudden change to want to be like other areas and have more classes? Lets keep in mind other areas do not have the classes like our area such as 358s, super sportsman, etc. Thus meaning less choices to move up to another affordable class and the reasoning for so many micro classes.

If you're going to have a sportsman class then it should be open to any 600. For you to say that the R6R is the most expense is untrue. I've found several at comparable rates to the other brands. Perhaps a class limiting the amount of adjusters and spec tire rule but then again why not just do that to our current 600 class? The only manufacture this would hurt in this area currently would be Hyper but the benefits to the fellow competitors would outweigh that.

Tire rule I could see being benefical.

In this area we have,
125
250 sportsmans
4 strokes
250 stock
270
600 winged
600 wingless
sidewinders
xcel mods
stage 1 mods
slingshots
speedstrs
358
410
super sportsman

and im sure the list goes on as a micro class we should find ways to protect the classes we have now in this area not find ways to split the fields even more and make the races boring or like karts where you're only racing 4 others at a time.

In my original post I talk about why I think this class will blossom and help the class overall, no need to repeat it here.

The problem with outlawing race ECU's or re-flashed ECU's is there is no way to check it. We would never be able to enforce the rule.

No adjusters is a good idea, what do others think? Bob wants two adjusters. Could go either way.

In my opinion, more engines would burn or have serious problems with carbs, in my opinion of course, I am sure you would differ Moose :-)

The R6R engine is, again in my opinion, better than the Kawasaki 636 and you will see one on my car next year. You just can't beat the 1,300 RPM advantage that the R6R engine offers. In the race at Lincoln this year, an R6R won pretty dominantly on a horsepower style track. The reason the R6R'sdo not win many races is because there are not too many of them out there....yet. And yes, some of the 'A' class rules ban the R6R, not all though, it varies.

I would argue that car counts have been up this year, about the only track I can think of that is down is Trail-Way, seriously, what other tracks are down? Lanco is about the same, up in some races, certainly this past weekend they were way up, Bridgeport is about the same, Linda's is up, Greenwood is up, Kutztown is way up, Hamilin about the same? (not to sure), Shippensburg is up, Path Valley about the same (maybe down a bit). Airport about the same, Middleford about the same. Correct me if I am wrong on these.

wing adjuster should be the only adjuster(front and back) put a bolt in the panhard adjuster to lock it in place.. simple fix (stallard, probe, pmp, pace, etc are all wlink cars anyway)

OPEN/MULTI/POWER I: 640cc Check for fuel and weight with a spec RR

And before anyone bashes this suggestion because they can compete with the high dollar open motors I believe Ryan Smith went to the power i race and out of like 150cars finished very well with unless my info is incorrect a U6SA legal engine.

Make this class the same so we can run out west with out changing motors and so they can run here. U6SA should have an agreement with poweri on these rules

A/STOCK/ SPORTSMAN: Who is going to have the time or the experience to tech these engines?

My thoughts for the sportsman class is this:
1. Stock(not modified in any way) engine off bike
2. Stock Rev limit
3. Wing adjuster only
4. Spec tire same as Open class to help bring price of tires down.
5. Stock air box and injection allowed to upgrade injectors to handle alcohol.
6. ALL motors allowed, that are 600cc production 4cylinder's
7.CLAIMER RULE take the average cost of a new engine between all manufactures and that would be the price. As the years change the price will go up.You can only claim 1 engine per year per driver.
8. Engine must be 2 years or more older than current year.
9. Aftermarket oil pan allowed.
10. No devices that record and store data mycron.. etc.

Mike, I have to disagree with you on not allowing the R6R not to run in the sportsman class. I have one and currently race one when they are stock unmodified without the timing of the movable stacks changed these motors are just as comparable to the suzuki and kawasaki 600cc engines. When you modify one they become alot better but i still believe the kawasaki 636 still has the advantage with the current rules that are in place.


I hope i put this in the right spot

AJ Michael

Mike, you may be correct but I couldn't find any organizations that banned the R6R. If memory serves me correct, you had a yami on at one time and put the kawi back on because you wern't competitive. I don't think you won't run one for long next year either when you find out how down on torque they are. The avg. kawi makes around 57 lbs ft torque, while the BEST yami that I know made 55.5 ft lbs of torque. Horsepower is not what pulls you off of the corners, torque is. The yami is competitive if the track slicks off or a big sweeping track where yopu don't suck the revs out of it, hence the win at Lincoln.
Question 2 is why in the world are we now going to allow aftermarket rods? $900 is not an item most guys can afford, but the guys that can, will have a distinct advantage because you can build more compression in the motor. I haven't seen many rod failures. Is this because most of the engine builders can't get a yami to live with stock rods? Let them do thier homework and figure out what is causing it instead of putting an expensive band-aid on it.

why not leave the 600 class one class and maybe limit cockpit adjuster to 2 and a spec tire or something. people who already own cars will just have to spend even more money to be competetive in the "A" class, or spend more money to meet the rules in the sportsman class. if you have a motor over 600cc to 637cc you would have to either spend $1500+ to re-power to a true 600cc for the sportsman class or $$$$ to keep up with the bigger budget teams in the "A" class. the motor rule like we have now gives you the leway to freshen the motor and keep running it within the rules.

all this is interesting..... not really sure what is best (my crystal ball is cloudy). But PLEASE,,, take a minute to think how these proposed rule changes, a new class may effect the Pro tour In PA. or the Pizza log tour in NY for next year 2012. If the sport is going to continue to grow it needs well run tour style races. If teams really want to race wingless let the track promotors/owners step up to provide the avenue for these events. be very careful introducing a new class in NOV 2011 for SPRING 2012. It could dilute the 600 class and cause many problems for car owners,,, not to mention much "hard feelings"

lets just 640 cc do what ever else you @#$%&#@ want ,wing adjuster only , spec right rear, the only reason the yam did good at linclon was the long sweeping turns , not cause of a hp advatage , the formation of a stock class just waters down the class even more , leave the rules alone or go open and dump u6sa

Just wondering... cause I don't know... was the Yami that won at Lincoln a U6SA legal motor or was it a completely built, 2mm open motor? I was told one thing but don't know that to be fact so I don't want to jump to conclusions before I know the facts.

Still pondering the rule proposals...

IF ITS ALL ABOUT MONEY THE THEN i'm all for 640cc, wing adjuster, and any make spec right rear. When i go to race i just want to race not have all the back biting bull shit that goes on.Oh just what is a big dollar team anyway?

the throttle body rule needs to be split to make it fair to the MFI VOTE....... come on already lol dont jam the efi throttle bodies in there with it

MFI RULE PROPOSAL

To allow any current production MFI system such as ENGLER,KINSLER, OR HILBORNE to be allowed to run in place of EFI systems or Carbs.


EFI THROTTLE BODY RULE PROPOSAL

Delete “No aftermarket throttle body” rule…..thus allowing no restriction on throttle body type when it comes to EFI systems.


Open ECU Rule Proposal

Allow any aftermarket ECU to be used as long as the stock RPM limit is maintained and testing is by current U6SA tach plug. (Guhl is currently using and possibly selling a fully adjustable ECU…why should it be limited to one vendor?)

Open Motor Rule Proposal

Run any motor any year up to 640cc with any induction system…ecu system etc. The only guidelines would be 640cc Max and have to weigh 825 Lbs. and 800 Lbs for Wingless everything else is open when it comes to modifications.

(This give the opportunity for the guys who have open motors already to still run them, as Speedweek has now gone to U6SA motor rules and also allows outsiders to come race with us, giving them that option)


These are separate rule proposals and should not be combined as I feel if they were combined such as the “throttle body” proposal you would force people to accept the efi throttle body change when they were only willing to accept the MFI part of it.


Thanks Michael Pj

From the 600 Sportsman Proposal, looking at the highlighted area of rule 1a, wondered if this was a typo?

1) Terms and conditions
a) If a change or modification to the stock engine or its parts is not included in these rules then
the modification is considered legal. Should this be "illegal"?

The addition of a 600 Sportsman Class would make us think more seriously about jumping up from the 270.

OPEN/MULTI/POWER I: 640cc Check for fuel and weight with a spec RR

And before anyone bashes this suggestion because they can compete with the high dollar open motors I believe Ryan Smith went to the power i race and out of like 150cars finished very well with unless my info is incorrect a U6SA legal engine.

Make this class the same so we can run out west with out changing motors and so they can run here. U6SA should have an agreement with poweri on these rules

A/STOCK/ SPORTSMAN: Who is going to have the time or the experience to tech these engines?

My thoughts for the sportsman class is this:
1. Stock(not modified in any way) engine off bike
2. Stock Rev limit
3. Wing adjuster only
4. Spec tire same as Open class to help bring price of tires down.
5. Stock air box and injection allowed to upgrade injectors to handle alcohol.
6. ALL motors allowed, that are 600cc production 4cylinder's
7.CLAIMER RULE take the average cost of a new engine between all manufactures and that would be the price. As the years change the price will go up.You can only claim 1 engine per year per driver.
8. Engine must be 2 years or more older than current year.
9. Aftermarket oil pan allowed.
10. No devices that record and store data mycron.. etc.

Mike, I have to disagree with you on not allowing the R6R not to run in the sportsman class. I have one and currently race one when they are stock unmodified without the timing of the movable stacks changed these motors are just as comparable to the suzuki and kawasaki 600cc engines. When you modify one they become alot better but i still believe the kawasaki 636 still has the advantage with the current rules that are in place.


I hope i put this in the right spot

AJ Michael

I agree 100% AJ......

I smell something here.

1st The U6SA Director just stated the R6R engine is the "MOST EXPENSIVE ENGINE".....what a joke. How did you come up with this ???

If you wanna make a second class....make it. But write the specs and don't apply names and brands to it. If it's gonna be a solid 600CC class...Fine.

I just picked up a Yami R6R last night. Full car kit $1600.00. How is this soooooooooooooo expensive.

Also, who is going to TECH this class???????

Engine rules are fine, but you have to be able to enforce them.


2nd How does the Director make a statement about car counts being the same as last year.

Airport gets about 13-14.
Briggeport has been getting about 20.
K-town has been down except on special shows.



3rd Can someone tell me how the 800 pound rule got squashed last year. Now here was a good RCP.



C'Ya................Glenn Kemery

The Sportsman class idea is like planting a seed, it will start small, maybe only one track or maybe two tracks will take on the new class. It will not affect current car counts. Maybe a track like Shippensburg who might have time in their schedule to add another class will take it on, or Lanco who has really strong car counts will add the sportsman class as a wingless division. It will take several years for the class to expand….slowly. I do not actually view this as a big change, just planting a small seed, nurture it, and watch it grow.

The legal part is correct, the rules are a list of things that cannot be done to the engine, if it doesn't say you can't do it, you can. This makes that rules a tech list of things that can be checked, we learned from the previous rules that the other way just leads to tons of gray areas.

I just checked three tracks that run the 'A' class, only one of them mentioned anything about the R6R engine, they handicapped it to 800 pounds on alcohol, 750 if on gas. When I ran in Tulsa in '07 I was not allowed to run the R6R, apparently they changed that rule. I stand by my evaluation of that engine, it is too good to allow it in the Sportsman class. It will dominate and make the class more expensive than it needs to be, yes there are exceptions where you can get a cheap one, but in general they are $800 more money than the equivalent GSXR and even more than the ZX-6R and RR engines. But hey, I am only one guy with one vote, we can vote on it at the meeting.

The 800 pound rule has been proposed several years in a row and each year the rule gets voted down by the majority.

The rod rule also has been proposed several years, and again, each time it gets voted down, I do not foresee it passing this year either.

With the proposal of a sportsman class we have an uproar. As I see it, most of the guys voicing their opinions wouldn't move to the new division. Most guys are going to continue running the "a" class. If a team who has money issues, this may give them an option to race when maybe they would have to park the car. If the Yami is in fact that far superior to the other stock 600's and costlier then it should be kept out of the division. I see this division as a true sportsman division where low budget teams can compete and inexperienced teams can cut their teeth. Therefor making the 600 divisions stronger. I think Mike's words "plant the seed and watch it grow", is the right attitude for a new division. Look what wingless has done in the past few years. Could the engines be teched and sealed in the beginning of the season to help with weekly teching, or lack thereof? We all know rules are no good if not enforced.

mike what a good deal...... i think a class like this will work just looking at the xcel mod class at lindas on friday nights.to bad we sold out of are 600 and moved on. i told you at the shop if there was a class like this i would have stayed in the 600 but i couldn't afford to keep running with the big dollars that are in the 600 class today.make it that you have to run a suzuki or a honda motor 05 and older you can buy them motors complete for under $700.00 any day of the week.i think you will get more people moving up from the 270 class and more people will move from karts to the 600 budget class and withing 2 to3 years it will be the biggest class out there.KEEP ME INFORMED ABOUT THE CLASS AND LET ME KNOW IF I NEED TO SELL THE LATE MODEL AND BUY ANOTHER 600.

How does the U6SA come up with an entirely different class? I thought the rules were only governed by the U6SA not necessarily created. If this class is to happen, wouldn't a U6SA track have to start it and then next year (2012 meeting) the U6SA would have voting on it? I'm confused how when the original meeting was started back 3-4 years ago was it that it was simply to have a UNIVERSAL set of rules. Now all the sudden we are creating classes. I believe there are other people on here that have said this as well, but take out all the adjusters or limit them get rid of the Mychron's and such and go race. This class is 85% perception. "If Joe wins 3 races, I need 4 shock adjusters like he has" People forget that Joe was running for 10 years, and it's your 10th race. Preception is everything!

A track will only need to run one of the set of engine rules to be a U6SA track and be a voting member. I suppose we should clarify that in the by-laws. Again, lets be clear here, this is only a set of rules, the way I see it, nothing will change at Trail-Way next year.

I agree that perception is everything and the reason people do not move out of other classes into the 637cc class is because of costs (perceived or real) and because there is stiff competition (very real) with guys that have been racing a long time. This is very intimidating and it keeps many people from getting into our class. That is the reality, I live and breath it every day. Yes the class is still very strong and will continue to be. Some people relish the challenge of the stiff competition. But many do not, and understandably so. Like it or not, our class it much more of an outlaw class than a budget class. Yes you can win in our class on a small budget no doubt, but that is not the perception.

The Sportsman class will be an incubator for new racers and budget racers to develop. I would even hope that the tracks could make the age limit for this class 12 years old opening up the 600 class to a whole new market.

We have tried to limit adjusters, add a tire rule, and up the weight limit in the 637cc class several times. It is very clear that the majority of the current group of racers do not want it as these rules get voted down year after year.

I love the discussion, keep it coming. Thank you Sasully and Broker for your positive comments.

Even tho I'm not for this sportsman class why would u propose a 775 winged weight rule and not 800lbs like the A class???

First off let's get this nomenclature correct. The 637 class is close to a multi and the sportsman class is close to the A class. Mike you say the R6R would dominate the A class. Doesent the Kawi 636 dominate the U6SA class? Why not allow all of the engines in that class be 637? I would be in favor of 640 cc's "run what you brung and hope you brung enough" ( thanks Rat). Then you would have more then Kawi's in that class having a chance to win on a regular basis. Seems like you want a level playing field so long as it is tilted in your direction. Back when we were all running F3s the cc rule was changed to allow for an overbore to clean up damaged cylinders, not to allow Kawi 636s a place to compete and dominate. Now in ordser to win you need a kawi but your not in favor of allowing other mfg's products to be brought up to the same cc limit. I understand your reluctance because the vast majority of the class is running a kawi and in your opinion they would need a different engine to be competitive, but what about all of the guys that had f3s and needed to update to a 636 to be competive. The progress will continue and you are holding steadfast to 6 yr old technology. For goodness sake even NASCARnival is allowing efi next year. Things will always evolve and improve wether you like it or not. Embrace the future and enjoy the ride. Peace.

The 'A' class does not have an 800 pound weight limit, all the tracks I just checked are all 750 pounds.

The Kawasaki 636 and the R6R are equal. I am not sure why you think the Kawasaki is so much better. Like I said, you will see an R6R on my car next year, in my opinion it is better than the Kawasaki mostly because of the huge rpm advantage. Yes it makes 3-4 horsepower less, but it is allowed to rev 1,300 rpms more.

To answer a question further back, the R6R that won Lincoln (not the speedweek race) was a U6SA legal engine, not 2 mill. And I disagree with the statement of Lincoln having sweeping turns, in relation to the straights, the turns are very tight. Judging by my RPM drop at Lincoln, it is similar to Lanco when running on the bottom. See the attachment.

And how are the rules tilted in my advantage?????? I do not get that one at all. I have no affiliation with Kawasaki. They do not sponsor me or pay me to write the rules in favor of their engines.

If we allowed all the engines to be 636cc, we would just raise the cost of racing by $1,200.00 for every engine you put in your car because the R6R would be a huge advantage if allowed to be 636cc.

Maybe down the road the 637cc class could become more of an open class, but until the Sportsman class becomes popular, we need to keep the rules as they are or we will be losing cars.

Why not go even better? In our sportsmans class? Our track rules are 98 or older, only 1ml over for hondas, any carbs , no fuel inj, truf tires and 10 sq top wing only, Motors are cheap, tires last a few years, we run on alky or gas, Its been Great for beginners, Gets peoples feet wet, Great competition here, And alot move on to a class as they get better. Just a thought, theres 3 to 4 different brands of motors running here with each having there own advantage, low torque to high end range. This truely is a cheaper class, been good here, Lets people learn how to do set ups, and basisally learn how these cars tick and drive Thanks for letting me share

ever thing you say seems to have an agenda , even if it doesnt, as its all about perception, you said that mike ! take the crap outa the cars ,wing slider thats it go to a spec rr ,give pj his mech injection ,leave everthing else as is or just open it up to what ever, you dont need trick shit to compete but as long as theres guys running data this and adjustable that they are going to skip our class , its not the engines that scare them , or in the words of john crash cradokk RUN WHAT YA BRUNG HOPE YOU BRUNG ENOUGH refering to the engines

Mike, I'm sorry if it came across as a personal attack. I didn't mean you personally, I was refering to the kawi users as a whole. I have been building these r6r engines for 3 years now and still cannot get close to the torque that the kawi makes. The Best yami on Guhl's dyno was 55.5 lbs ft. I have seen kawis make in excess of 60 lbs ft. That is a HUGE advantage. This cannot be overcome with 1300 rpms. The best we can do is keep up, but in no means do we have the torque to root someone off the bottom and beat them off of the corner even when we have the prefered line. Good luck with the yami next year especially with trying to keep rod bearings in them. It took me 5 blown motors until I figured how to remedy the problem. Again I apoligize if that came across as personal. I will always try and keep this as a conversation based on merit, not personal attacks. Peace, Bryan

Rat, Thank you for thinking that I have the power and am responsible for the rules. Unfortunately I am not. It is not up to me to take the "crap out of the cars". And exactly what is my agenda? To increase car counts? I am guilty. I tried to get a spec tire passed two years ago, got Hoosier to give us money and everything, I spent a lot of time on it, but the majority of the racers did not want it so it was never passed.

We tried to limit the adjusters, the majority of the racers did not want to limit adjusters. Do not blame me.

Do I take advantage of the rules to try to go faster? Absolutely, I am guilty. Aparently it is not working though:-)

Sorry for sounding defensive to all those reading, If I were a truly awakened soul I would not care what others think. I am growing.

Thanks Big B. I did take it personally, so I am sorry for misunderstanding, that is the bad thing about message boards, you can not fully understand the personal expression of someone. If we were all in a room talking, this would be a whole lot easier. But this takes a lot less gas.

Peace brother.

like said before its all about perception.. people on the outside looking in see cars with 20 adjusters, carbon fiber body, mychron, shock potentiometers, sway bars, etc and think that is what they need to be competitive.

This class is way out of hand. Look at the 410 class they only allow wing adjuster, and the 358s dont even allow that. Get rid of all the adjusters but wing and there will be no reason for a sportsman class. Shippensburg has already started a "Rookie" class which is a great way for people to get started in the class and move up when they feel comfortable. I believe Hamlin already has a "Rookie" 600 wingless class as well. What I like about this is when they want to move up they just do so they dont have to go out and buy another motor, they can just run what they already have. And theres not another set of rules to confuse people even more. And exactly who will tech these "sportsman" motors when the rules that have been in place for awhile now still arent being enforced to the fullest. I've seen several cars at different tracks this year without bladders installed, thats the simplist rule to check.

To be clear when is the next U6SA meeting?

Mike, I'm sorry if it came across as a personal attack. I didn't mean you personally, I was refering to the kawi users as a whole. I have been building these r6r engines for 3 years now and still cannot get close to the torque that the kawi makes. The Best yami on Guhl's dyno was 55.5 lbs ft. I have seen kawis make in excess of 60 lbs ft. That is a HUGE advantage. This cannot be overcome with 1300 rpms. The best we can do is keep up, but in no means do we have the torque to root someone off the bottom and beat them off of the corner even when we have the prefered line. Good luck with the yami next year especially with trying to keep rod bearings in them. It took me 5 blown motors until I figured how to remedy the problem. Again I apoligize if that came across as personal. I will always try and keep this as a conversation based on merit, not personal attacks. Peace, Bryan


You def don't need a Kawi 636 to be competitive. I am currently running an 08 Suzuki GSXR with just a valve job. Less than 130 hp and less than 54 ft-lbs torque. I have no problem keeping up with Kawi 636's or Yamaha R6r's from the big engine builders. I think the perception is that the Kawi 636 dominates simply because that is what 80% (or more) of the cars are running.

I have run three different engines. A Kawi 636, a Yamaha R6r, and a Suzuki GSXR 600 (which I am currently running). I personally feel all three engines are about equal. All three have strong and weak points on the track. I haven't run a Honda 600RR, however have talked to some people running them and they also seem to run well. I believe a Honda 600RR timed 14th quick last year at Linda's National Open.

Set-up is way more important than horsepower.

Setup is definetly everything how about a stock 05 r6 timing 5th fast at kutztown nationals and wining the b-main with a convincing lead.

like said before its all about perception.. people on the outside looking in see cars with 20 adjusters, carbon fiber body, mychron, shock potentiometers, sway bars, etc and think that is what they need to be competitive.

This class is way out of hand. Look at the 410 class they only allow wing adjuster, and the 358s dont even allow that. Get rid of all the adjusters but wing and there will be no reason for a sportsman class. Shippensburg has already started a "Rookie" class which is a great way for people to get started in the class and move up when they feel comfortable. I believe Hamlin already has a "Rookie" 600 wingless class as well. What I like about this is when they want to move up they just do so they dont have to go out and buy another motor, they can just run what they already have. And theres not another set of rules to confuse people even more. And exactly who will tech these "sportsman" motors when the rules that have been in place for awhile now still arent being enforced to the fullest. I've seen several cars at different tracks this year without bladders installed, thats the simplist rule to check.

To be clear when is the next U6SA meeting?

I agree with this, get back to basic's

A suggestion to Mike and the others involved with U6SA.....before doing all this hard work on coming up with another class, take a look at how the tracks deal with "entry level" racers. At Paradise Speedway we have the AM 600 class designed for people new to the sport or moving up/into sprint style cars. It seems to work from my expirience and what i have seen over the last 3 years. Input from the tracks may prove very beneficial .... maybe the "seeds have been planted" already..... the 600 sprint racing is pretty strong just look at all the tracks running them,, two series (Pizza logs and HTMA 600 pro),,,,,, and,,,THANKS to Mike and the others for all their work to make this sport better..........

Thanks for clarifying the 636 displacement rule. One idea for the Sportsman is to run on gas with the stock injection. Almost half the cost of the motor package is the alchohol conversion.

Thank you for all you thoughts, I will update this post next week with some new proposals. Lots of good discussion here, that is how progress is made.

Hey Mike, why are all the rule discussions based primarily on engines and trying to save the racers money on engines? Follow with me here, if you were to build a new chassis that would take off a second a lap, and everybody had to have one to be competitive, but it cost $6000.00, would that be an unfair advantage and a rule written to ban it from competition? Or how about a set of these liquid metal magnetic shocks at around $1500.00 each, would they be banned? Progression will continue on forever, so why are we writing rules to ban only part of it. Why not just ban anything new from ever coming into the class and we all race identical cars? Oh, I forgot, they call that IROC, how boring!!! Have a great remainder of the weekend. Peace, Bryan

everybody needs two take a step back and think about the sport and not just about there race team. some would say if its not broke then why fix it, that's the problem people are broke, this is why car counts have dropped. if you can say 12 to 15 cars is a good field then you are crazy, i can remember when all classes brought 30 cars to the track on a regular bases and that was every weekend not just some special show. this is why a sportsman class would be great. just look at the big cars with the crate classes, now it has taken a few years but they draw just as many or more

Hey Mike, why are all the rule discussions based primarily on engines and trying to save the racers money on engines? Follow with me here, if you were to build a new chassis that would take off a second a lap, and everybody had to have one to be competitive, but it cost $6000.00, would that be an unfair advantage and a rule written to ban it from competition? Or how about a set of these liquid metal magnetic shocks at around $1500.00 each, would they be banned? Progression will continue on forever, so why are we writing rules to ban only part of it. Why not just ban anything new from ever coming into the class and we all race identical cars? Oh, I forgot, they call that IROC, how boring!!! Have a great remainder of the weekend. Peace, Bryan

you can't talk about that part being included in the rules haha:D :eek:

i think that we will be ready for a " sportmans class" in a few years. i remember back in the day when we ( 270 guys) were having the same discussions about the 600 class that was trying to get momentum. Mike would have to make sure we all showed up at lindas on a friday just to get 12 cars. that discussion many years ago was also started by Mike so it think he might have some experience with this sort of thing.

there is no sense getting all worked up about dividing car counts now because there are so many things that need to happen before a class like this would even get off the ground. Pennsylvania is an anomaly in the 600 class across the country. there are many many good race teams across the country but we have a higher concentration of 600 sprints geographically then anywhere else in the country. And the teams that race in this area are better funded then most teams. We take our racing very very very seriously.

Mike is correct there are alot of talented drivers in the 600 class and some guys get tired of hearing the same names week in and week out and the perception is that if they only had what those guys have they would also be competitive. The perception of 600 class cost is one of the reason we are losing drivers. now that isn't the only reason, race payout, track conditions etc are other contributing factors but that is another discussion.

i have talked to alot of guys that have left the 600 class for other classes and the one common reason im given is i spent as much on this 305 ( for example) as i did for a 600. the perception is the 305 is a better, bigger, faster a more legitimate racing machine. in alot of cases these are the same guys that don't feel the can compete with the " better" funded teams.

Allowing the R6R in the sportmans class would be ridculous. The engine is absolutley on an even plane with the kawasaki and it is absolutely on eof the most expensive engines around. The 09 and up GSXR that ryan has been running this season is on a similar level to the R6R but it has to be worked to get it there. The GSXR is cheap. i have yet to pay over $800 for an 09. so what i save in engine cost allow me to spend on the build and still keep me less then the kawasaki. That same gsxr would be a good in expensive almost bullet proof engine for the sportmans class but unworked against the R6R on a multi groove track .....not a chance.

The sportmans class will bring equality ( perceived or otherwise) to the 600 class and it will absolutley strengthen our numbers

Wayne, I don't get your point. Right now on e-bay there are 3 r6r engines for under $1000.00. Are you telling me that NPS will modify the pistons or change them to 2011 pistons( a much better piston), cut the head, valve job, and aftermarket cams( if needed), set the cam timing (adapters needed), and labor, all for less then $200.00. The avg. off the bike r6r is 132 hp, the avg gsxr is 129. Where is this great advantage?

The advantage of the R6R is mostly in the RPMS. I understand the love for the R6R engine, it is a great engine. The engines on ebay for sale under a $1,000 are all pre 2008 and 2 of the 3 do not contain airbox, ECU, etc, those items sell separate for a lot of $. The pre 2008 models do not have the adjustable stacks, big difference. I suppose a rule could be proposed for the 06-07 non adjustable stack R6R to be legal, that would be a valid argument.

Yes, if a $6,000 set of shocks would knock 2 seconds off a lap, I would think they should be banned. If I designed a chassis that knocked 2 seconds off a lap, it should be banned if it costs $8,000 for a frame. I am trying to do this by the way, I just fail, year after year.

Our class is far from being a cookie cutter class, there is a ton of room for innovation and creativity. The Xcel modified is a cookie cutter class, and some racers like that.

no brian what i am saying is the suzuki is a much cheaper engine to buy.half the cost of the R6R..... i am going to do some research but the R6R performance , though it might be 4 hp( compared to stock suzuki) coupled with the 800+- rpm i would suggest ,(as mike has) is what makes it a good, competitive engine in relation to the kawasaki. on the smaller tracks maybe not so much but tracks where you can keep it wound up, like trailways, i contend it would have a big advantage plus IT IS EXPENSIVE!!!!!!!!
the sportman class is for budget minded racers..... we will still have the 637 class for guys that want to add performance to their engines

wayne having run kaws and the yamaha the stockun modified yamaha is a far cry 128 129 on dons dyno to a pa legeal 1 135 to 136 the 06 07 motors sell for sub 1200 as kits 90% of the time , only pre 06 gxsr s sell for that low dollar you said lookin at the 07 and new kits on ebay they all are 1400 plus

since you postedthis rule proposals all racing has been rained out can you push the meeting back a few weeks so zak light ,tim dietz and myself could have a chance to touch base with the racers at the tracks we represent [ lindas trailways and path valley] to get feed back before a vote ?

That is a good idea, I will send an email out to all the members right now, the meeting will be Oct. 5th 7PM.

Wayne, now you know what i'm saying. To make a gsxr competitive takes several thousand dollars. To make a yami competitive takes several hundred dollars. However neither are anywhere near the Kawi. You are incorrect in your thinking that the yami is competitive at TW, that is the last place you would be competitive. Lindas or path you would have a fighting chance, but not at TW. The turns are too tight for the entry speed you carry, it sucks the life out of your engine, ask Shawn or Rat. Not near enough torque to pull you off the corner competitively.

I totally disagree with your premise of "neither are as good as the Kawi". This simply is not true. The R6R simply needs a good valve job and cam timing to be competitive with the Kawi. The GSXR, because of the RPM limitation on it, is not quite as good.

IN MY OPINION.

Lets please add that to all of our posts when we start making quantitative statements.

thanks mike,i am under the asumption that i am the path rep this year randy had said at the begining ofthe year he was no longer intrested in the position ,any where you race the yamaha that you have to check off the gas pedal for just an instant it dies coming off , my kaws where never this bad at path its not so bad but at tw you become more of a road block lol than i already am , also it would seem that path is going to this sportsman type of class in 2012 from my talks with john

Good suggestion on pushing the meeting date back. I wasn't sure what I was going to do. Haven't been at the track for two weeks and a family commitment will keep me from Linda's again this Friday. The extra week should give me enough time to get some valuable feedback from the racers at Linda's.

Rat, I have to agree with Wayne on the price of the GSXR's... or should I say, lack there of. I purchased an entire 08 GSXR engine package and had it shipped to my house for a grand total of $830. Right now there are no really good deals on ebay. However, there are other avenues besides ebay to come up with an engine. All in all, the GSXR engines/packages are less than a 08-11 Yamaha or a 05-06 Kawasaki.

Mike, you are correct. Alot of this is my opinion, however the dyno numbers are quanitative numbers. The dyno doesn't care what is bolted to it, it just gives unbiased results:)

Yes, I need to remember that too.

On our dyno, a good R6R, when you shift the RPM limit, is as good as the ZX-6R, of course every engine is different, but a good R6R is right there.

brian my point of the gsxr vs the r6r is this. The r6r with the stacks would become the kawasaki of the sportmans class. is that what you want? i would support a r6r rule of 07 or older in that class. the 08 and up R6R is EXPENSIVE. The sportman class is suppose to be an more affordable alternative the the 637 class
everyone is hung up on the dyno but we all know that doesn't represent how the engine races. That R6R with the adjustable stacks is as competitive hands down as the kawasaki. i race 60 plus races a year at 25 + tracks and i have seen the performance. that is what i do i watch different combos and how they perform on the track.
The R6R on the dyno is the same as the GSXR but not on the track . you know why? The 500 rpms the R6R has on the GSXR what saves the gsxr is the fact that it has a litlte more bottom then the r6r and the torgue curve is nice.
The GSXR takes a fair amount of work to get the maximum out of it but it has a good reliable platform to work from. and it is cheap enough that you can spend a little extra on the build
The GSXR would be a great engine for the sportman class stock because it is cheap( relatively speaking) and almost bullet proof it also is about the same as most of the older R6s and hondas etc in the stock version but if you want to spend some money on your engine it is very competitive in the 636 class.

make the motor rules be 07 and older don't let the 08 and newer suzuki in the sportsman class they cost to much to by off the bike.......07 and older you can by them for under $700.00 right now there are 2 06 suzukis on craigslist for $400.00 each and thats what the class needs.run it just like the excel mod engine rules except make it 07 and older.

How about the 08-11 r6r without the movable stacks or on carbs?

it gets too complicated..... there is just no reason for that engine in that class. its not cheap, its not readily available and then it gets convoluted because now the tracks have to make sure this combination for for this year and this combonation for that year...so on

Why don't we use the A-class rules that are already in place in the mid west? Then turn the us6a class now into the multi 640 anything goes.

You can't use the price of the motor as the deciding factor. Price is up on the 08 r6r and kawi cause the demand is up. Where the gsxr / honda older r6 and even newer kawi is not. We re the ones runnin the price up. Whatever the hot motor will be the price will go up. A guy sees the motor biddin upto 1800 he d be a full to list it cheaper. I've bout 4 08/09 kits for under a grand. And gotten other guys kawi for as low as 400. Cause those guys didn't go on "ebay" and see what they were goin for. Decisions should be on performance differences. Peoplee stop buyin these yamis and kawai. They ll go down too.

Wayne, I find it humorous that in one sentence you say the r6r is competitive with the kawi in the 637 class and then you say the r6r would dominate the sportsman class like the kawi does now. Which is it? Garrison, well stated!

Wayne, I find it humorous that in one sentence you say the r6r is competitive with the kawi in the 637 class and then you say the r6r would dominate the sportsman class like the kawi does now. Which is it? Garrison, well stated!

Currently, the Kawasaki 636 is the dominate motor. If you do the work to the Yamaha R6r than it becomes competitive with the Kawasaki 636. If you were to allow the 08-11 Yamaha R6r in the proposed sportsman class it would dominate that class (like the Kawasaki 636 currently dominates). Both statements are correct and you said the same thing Wayne said.

brian,
The sportman class is designed to be a MORE AFFORDABLE class of 600. instead of spending THOUSANDS of dollars on engines this class would be ( but not limited to) older chassis, later model engines etc. that is what will most likely be the foundation or thinking this class will be built upon

The R6R 08 and up does not fit the mould of a more affordable class of machine. now is there anything keeping anyone from starting with a new car? no there isnt but the thinking is most would not

i would suggest that their will be limitations on shocks, adjusters, wing size , tire compound etc.
i believe the R6R (08 and up) would dominate in the SPORTSMAN class just as the kawasaki dominates the 637 CLASS now
The R6R (08 and up) doesn't have as many wins locally because there aren't many racing in this area. if you would step away from trailways and travel to other parts of the country you would see that the R6R is the choice for most other areas of the country.

the bottom line is this. i will vote against the 08 and up R6R in this class. i will also vote against adjustable shocks (not just against cockpit adjusters) i will vote for spec tire in this class as well as wing size top and front. but i am just one vote out of many. Brian you can present your argument to Tim Dietz.

this proposed class is in it's infancy ( assuming that it even is born) and then it has to be picked up and nurtured and developed. maybe after a couple years and increased car counts the R6R might noit even be a debate but as we have found out with the 636 kawasaki once you allow it it's almost impossible to expect anyone to give it up.

Don't forget at the 2nd U6SA meeting i believe a proposal was voted on and passed to phase out the 636 in 2013. that lasted until the following year when everyone realized the impact it was actually going to have on the class. if it would have stayed in place what would have happened next year 2012 D- Day? you would have has a bunch of 636cc boat anchors and by the way Don Guhl and Mike Dicely and Scott Spar all voted to rescind the 2013 date. the 3 guys that had the most to gain from obsoleting an engine. i would hope that everyone keep that in mind when personal agendas take over a public debate

i'll tell you what brian i will give you a chance to convince me to vote in favor of the R6R 08 and up. here's the criteria. you must explain to me how allowing that particular engine combination will help increase the parity in this start up class?
no personal attacks, no selfish connotations just a presentations of why you believe the R6R (08-up) is a building block for this class

I hope this will help...A list of the would-be most popular choices for the Sportsman 600 Sprint Class.

The conversion includes the throttle body conversion to accept methanol, a Power Commander (should be comparable in price to a GUTS box), and a wiring harness conversion. I used $550 for the price of the wiring conversion and Power Commander.

I used ebay to get the engine kit pricing and realize that the prices are going to vary but this should provide perspective in relationship to cost.


2003-2005 R6

Engine kit - $1000

Conversion – 1650

$2650

2006-2007 R6

Engine Kit - $1000

Conversion - $2145

$3145

2008-2010 R6

Engine Kit - $1500

Conversion -$2345

$3845

----------------------------------------

2004-2005 GSXR

Engine Kit - $800

Conversion -$1650

$2450

2006-2007 GSXR

Engine Kit - $1100

Conversion -$2045

$3145

2008-2010 GSXR

Engine Kit - $1200

Conversion -$2245

$3445

---------------------------------------

2003-2004 Honda RR

Engine Kit - $750

Conversion -$2075

$2825

2005-2006 Honda RR

Engine Kit - $1000

Conversion -$2075

$3075

2007-2009 Honda RR

Engine Kit - $1100

Conversion -$2135

$3235

----------------------------------------

2007-2008 ZX6R

Engine Kit - $1000

Conversion -$1845

$2845

2009-2010 ZX6R

Engine Kit - $1200

Conversion -$2245

$3445

Why don't we use the A-class rules that are already in place in the mid west? Then turn the us6a class now into the multi 640 anything goes.

we cant do that around here.....the rest of the country does it that way and has more car counts....we seem to wanna do it the hard way:D

Im not a huge fan of gasoline but how does everyone feel about using gasoline and factory injection? That would eliminate the conversion cost. $175 wiring conversion, a set of mounts and see you at the track! Some factory injections wont fit on certain chassis though. Also, if you stick with the bladder rule for this class, using gasoline will cost you another $665 (assuming you already have the shell and cap assembly).

brian,
The sportman class is designed to be a MORE AFFORDABLE class of 600. instead of spending THOUSANDS of dollars on engines this class would be ( but not limited to) older chassis, later model engines etc. that is what will most likely be the foundation or thinking this class will be built upon

The R6R 08 and up does not fit the mould of a more affordable class of machine. now is there anything keeping anyone from starting with a new car? no there isnt but the thinking is most would not

i would suggest that their will be limitations on shocks, adjusters, wing size , tire compound etc.
i believe the R6R (08 and up) would dominate in the SPORTSMAN class just as the kawasaki dominates the 637 CLASS now
The R6R (08 and up) doesn't have as many wins locally because there aren't many racing in this area. if you would step away from trailways and travel to other parts of the country you would see that the R6R is the choice for most other areas of the country.

the bottom line is this. i will vote against the 08 and up R6R in this class. i will also vote against adjustable shocks (not just against cockpit adjusters) i will vote for spec tire in this class as well as wing size top and front. but i am just one vote out of many. Brian you can present your argument to Tim Dietz.

this proposed class is in it's infancy ( assuming that it even is born) and then it has to be picked up and nurtured and developed. maybe after a couple years and increased car counts the R6R might noit even be a debate but as we have found out with the 636 kawasaki once you allow it it's almost impossible to expect anyone to give it up.

Don't forget at the 2nd U6SA meeting i believe a proposal was voted on and passed to phase out the 636 in 2013. that lasted until the following year when everyone realized the impact it was actually going to have on the class. if it would have stayed in place what would have happened next year 2012 D- Day? you would have has a bunch of 636cc boat anchors and by the way Don Guhl and Mike Dicely and Scott Spar all voted to rescind the 2013 date. the 3 guys that had the most to gain from obsoleting an engine. i would hope that everyone keep that in mind when personal agendas take over a public debate

i'll tell you what brian i will give you a chance to convince me to vote in favor of the R6R 08 and up. here's the criteria. you must explain to me how allowing that particular engine combination will help increase the parity in this start up class?
no personal attacks, no selfish connotations just a presentations of why you believe the R6R (08-up) is a building block for this class

wayne what i think will suck is not allowing it because guys cant buy used r6r injection stuff from the current guys....thus forcing them to buy new stuff costing more and .......dare i say creating a new sale of injection systems

the hard RR tire will def calm down any HP advantage in a stock class

Im not a huge fan of gasoline but how does everyone feel about using gasoline and factory injection? That would eliminate the conversion cost. $175 wiring conversion, a set of mounts and see you at the track! Some factory injections wont fit on certain chassis though. Also, if you stick with the bladder rule for this class, using gasoline will cost you another $665 (assuming you already have the shell and cap assembly). wow look at this blast of absolute common sense! I have said this for yrs, and we are required to run a bladder anyway now. If it your initial purchase there is no additional cost, just buy the correct bladder. How nice it would be to have your fuel pump, fuel lines, injectors, injector screens , rings, cylinders, not attacked by methanol. etc etc etc
But the safety thing always seemed to flush this option right down the toilet. But there is no rule prohibiting the use of gasoline now, so if we were so safety minded i would think there would be a rule to prohibit it, which there is not.

wow look at this blast of absolute common sense! I have said this for yrs, and we are required to run a bladder anyway now. If it your initial purchase there is no additional cost, just buy the correct bladder. How nice it would be to have your fuel pump, fuel lines, injectors, injector screens , rings, cylinders, not attacked by methanol. etc etc etc
But the safety thing always seemed to flush this option right down the toilet. But there is no rule prohibiting the use of gasoline now, so if we were so safety minded i would think there would be a rule to prohibit it, which there is not.

5 ricky 5 just 5 today lol

gas would scare the living piss out of me. the tracks would definitely have to step up their game to deal with that. the fuel lines would have to be addressed as well as protecting the injection from being knocked off as well as a fail safe to turn off fuel pump. underwear etc.
i'm not against if it can be dealt with reasonably ......... but ask Harli White how she about gasoline and race tracks that aren't prepared to handle it

I would vote for gasoline only, man that would save every racer a ton of money initially and on maintenance. LETS DO IT.

Factory air box will not fit on 06 and older Hypers for some engines, I think all the down tube cars would be fine, will have to cut the hood pretty good to fit the factory air box though.

I also think we should make it mandatory to have an AN fitting welded onto the factory fuel rail, otherwise they will use a hose clamp, not good at all.

Safety wise, we can suggest other ideas, maybe a fire suppressant system, maybe a head sock and underwear rule....thoughts?

i'm all for running it on gasoline there are alot of other classes of racing that run gas and there is never a prob.if you want make it mandatory that you have a fire system on the car for extra saftey then do that it will keep the cost down big time.another thing what do you need a blatter for???????? how many 270 guys run one and they are all but as fast as the 600's and flip the same way if they get in trouble.

The welded steel AN fitting on the fuel nipple is a great idea. If we use gasoline and end up spending $1500 worth of safety items to keep drivers safe, (bladders, fire suppression) it kind of takes the wind from the sails of the cost effective argument. My opinion...

The welded steel AN fitting on the fuel nipple is a great idea. If we use gasoline and end up spending $1500 worth of safety items to keep drivers safe, (bladders, fire suppression) it kind of takes the wind from the sails of the cost effective argument. My opinion...


ya ryan your right but if you don't have to run the bladder that takes what 700.00 away and a halon fire system you can by and it comes with 3 nozzles for around 300.00 there is one on ebay right now with a buy it now for 100.00

Hey Wayne, I haven't used and personal attacks, the misunderstanding with mike has been apoligized for. My only reason for wanting to allow the 08 r6r in the proposed new class is if a guy rubs this clas and wants to go west and run the A class where this engine is allowed, he will be at a disadvantage. I really personally have NO interest in a sportsman class, but We do build a fair amount of yami's for guys that are interested. As far as the other rules discussed for this class I'm all for it. I would like to see the 636 class limited to only a wing adjuster and a spec tire. I am also all for gasoline as long as a halon system is required. As far as getting away from TW I would love to do that but with Shawn's work schedule and my business booming it is not possibly at this time. Peace, Bryan

from what i see in ryans pricing anything new than 08 should be banned on cost if your baning yamahas then the suzuks go to on cost and performance on just how ryans runs and pricing of the 08 and newer

so exaclly how do we plan to check the engines to see if the head cut the blocks cut, the cams esp. the zuks with a pressed on gear if i remember right, and y no adj shocks its a saving so long as they arent cockpit adj ?

I think there should be a rule proposal that anyone who operates and benefits in a monetary form should not have any vote in these rules.....

I disagree with that PJ. Mike has poured his heart and soul into our sport, as has terry schaffer, don guhl, and many others. Wayne Lesher has stepped up to the plate "big time" to start and fund a traveling series out of pocket. These guys have every right to vote on things that effect their livelyhood.

I think anyone who's car number is 91 should not be allowed to have an opinion :-)

i'll 2nd that!!! all in favor?

but seriously there are many good ideas coming about and this class will grow and will go thru changes. what is important is to not lose sight of the mission of the class which is to keep and or attract racers to the 600 class. so when everyone thinks about how they would like to see this class develop keep in mind that it must benefit the class not just the individual.

i think that it is also very very important that the members of the U6SA stay in control of this class. i think it is going to be the key to the success of the class.

so.... does this mean the U6SA is going from a rules/cost/organizing body.... to a sanctioning organization?? By proposing a "spec class" (ie. sportsman) the U6SA group is moving into new territory. Is this REALLY A GOOD IDEA right now??? I would think a better path would be to refine the rules (make as few changes as possible) and work more on promotion and better paying events. And is there a complete registry of 600 sprint car teams anywhere? do we know the actual number of cars "out there" ? Has a study been done to see how many times teams race per season, how many are traveling to different tracks, where is the "high consentration" area the teams are located in and other data that could be analyzed to help build the 600 class?

I would love to have all that information! Unfortunately no one has volunteered to gather it.

This has nothing to do with the U6SA being a sanctioning body, that has never been on its agenda.

My reasoning for proposing this class is based on several criteria. Hearing the cries of those who leave the class and those who never enter it as well as those who are currently in it. Analyzing the success of classes in other areas of the country as well as success of other classes in our area. And realizing there are three kinds of racers:
1. Those who love extreme competition and have the resources to run with the best there is.
2. Those who do not have the resources to contend, but love the sport and want to race with the primary goal of having fun.
3. Those who are wanting to get into the class and need a place to grow and learn before jumping into the proverbial fire.

The Sportsman 600 Sprints will be a place for the later two groups to compete.

The idea for this class has been around for a while. I see now as the time to define a set of rules. Then let the tracks consider its value. I see absolutely no down side. Although there may be some who jump form the current class, most the competitors will come form other classes or new racers into the market. We live in the sprint car capitol of the world, most people in this area would rather run a sprint type car than a legend, modified, etc. The Sportsman 600 Sprint class is the place for them.

Yes, some of the reasoning is based on the feeling of my heart rather than hard evidence. History has taught me to listen to my heart.

I think anyone who's car number is 91 should not be allowed to have an opinion :-)

me too! dam son-of-a bitch.... good thing my number is 91X lol

mike i know you put alot of effort into this whole deal and that comment wasnt meant to single you out at all...

No problem Mike, I did not take it personally. I understand your perspective.

I am not quit sure where I stand on adding another class to the 600's.It sounds as though it could be a good thing but here are a few things to ponder. It is been said that the sportsman class is big in other parts of the country but correct me if I am wrong most of those tracks do not run 270's, which is some what like a sportsman class in this area. And what about the 270's?I know this is all talk about growing the 600 class but what will this do to the 270 class? As things are now most people start in the 270's and progress into the 600's (unless you have the next Jeff Gordon, then you move right up to the 410's). Will a Sportsman class cause people moving up from karts and quarter midgets to by-pass the 270's and move right into the 600's. Is this what we want. How about the tracks? Do they need to add and yet one more division. Then we would have three classes with less cars in each class. What about the fans. We can not expect the casual fan to sit through a five hour show with four or five classes of cars that all look the same. I beleive Hamlin and Kutztown have the advantage of attracting and keeping fans by running both winged and wingless. The fans can see some type of difference in the cars. Also, if the sportsman class is not any or much faster than the 270's will people wanting to move up from the 270's just by-pass the sportsman class and move into the open class anyway?

I know the sportsman class is not intended to draw cars from the current class, but I do feel it would take a few away. Pay outs are all dependant on car count, if we loose just a couple more cars a night it will not even be worth loading the thing on the trailer. The 600's now race for $2-300's a night what would they pay the sportsman class. Trophies?

As far as the motor rules for the current 600's. Since I have owned a 600 I always felt they sould be kept stock or close to it. However , after this year I have had a change of heart. This year we raced with a Pa legal motor at many open shows along with a trip to Illinois where anything goes, and at no time did I feel we where ever out motored (out smarted but not out motored). You do not have to spend all your money on motors to be competative. Open up the motor rules ,get your chassis hooked up and let her eat. Ya all be cool!

May be bad idea, BUT. Run all 600s together (to keep car counts up) Till "Sportsman" class takes off. And have seperate results for each group. Like sports cars do???