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2014 U6SA Engine Rule Proposal

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  • rat
    replied
    My proposal of sealed bottom end is to aid in tech.if you have the seal you wouldnt have to pull your pan at the race track. No seal and you would be subject to dumping oil and pulling pan of.

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  • AussieQ73
    replied
    Jmo
    I know I don't even race in you series or country but the following I think would service everyone in one way or another....
    Kawi 636 to be the only engine over 600cc. Engine must measure 636. No bigger, all other engines 600 cc max,
    2 stroke engines allowed providing not over 550cc,
    Head- open
    Bottom end and trans- open
    All non kawi to be 600 cc max
    Zx6 to remain 600cc max,
    Any induction system allowed, any engine control unit allowed except for motec, 600 cc to have rev limit of 16100, 636 to be 14700
    Engine must be 3 years or older
    Must use a 35mm restrictor in intake system, Wether it's a plate or the throat of the t/b
    Any exhaust
    100% alky only
    Rd25 rr or equivalent
    770 pound weight limit on 600
    785 on 636 12-1/2 sq foot top wing max
    48" wide max with 54 inch side boards
    All u6sa tracks to have minimum of one measuring tool to measure bore and stroke, take one spark plug out and can measure sweep of crank and bore diameter without disassemble of engine, no pans to be dropped at track
    No engine claimer rule, that's a crap rule that puts people out of pocket! Unless it's a trade rule system where top 3 cars can only be ellegible to claim and swap of engine with a $1000 fee for claimer,
    Last edited by AussieQ73; 08-19-2014, 11:37 PM.

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  • Wrench35
    replied
    I've had my experience with engine seals. I would never recommend them.
    I know what the tech procedure is. To do it properly takes a good amount of time. But when done properly it would catch almost all cheaters. And that is the problem. Others have said it and I'll say it again, almost nobody does a proper tech inspection. There is only a handful of items that can only be found by tearing down a motor. You have 2 choices, more engine rules and a longer tech procedure or less engine rules and a shorter tech procedure. Your suggesting the first with more of a stock engine class. More rules, more tech and a bigger chance of something getting missed.
    My rule change suggestions
    1: Take away Carillo rods. Tech should already be looking for aftermarket aluminum rods so it adds no time to the tech procedure.
    2: No 2mm big bore motors. 03-06 kawi is now the only motor allowed to be 636. Rev limit for 03-06 kawi is 14,800. All other motors 16,100. Again tech should already be identifying the engine and checking for bore, stroke and rev limit.
    3: Add a punishment system that links all U6SA tracks together. Get caught at 1 track, your now suspended from all tracks.
    4: Aftermarket throttle bodies for MFI is now legal. If I can run any carbs on any motor. And if I can run any EFI system on any motor that originally came with EFI why can't I run an MFI system.
    5: No mixing of main engine parts from different design engines, even from the same manufacturer. i.e. no 05 r6 top ends on an 02 r6 bottom end.
    Rule change 1 takes effect January 1, 2015. Rule change 2 and 5 take effect January 1, 2016. All other rules become locked for the 2015 through 2017 seasons.
    6: A: Any new motor design that comes out will not be legal for competition until it is reviewed at the 2017 rules meeting.
    B: The new 2013+ kawi 636 is not legal.

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  • LHS Engines
    replied
    Well I made suggestions for engine rule CHANGES, I wasn't trying to rewrite the whole rule book. But i will say the engine seals don't work and neither dose the claim rule. And yes I have been involved with both . Matter of fact that is why i have 600s as of now . And yes your are correct I don't feel that the rules are that far off, but have you looked at the engine tech sheet that the techs have to use at the track usually around 11:00 or 12:00 pm at night and go by ? Read that if ya get a chance then then maybe you will have different suggestions.

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  • Wrench35
    replied
    Listen I'm not trying to beat you up. But what you originally suggested sounds like a stock motor class. Your first words were and I quote "Once again I don't think our engine rules are not that far off, but I think they need to be cleaned up and easier to follow." Then one of your suggestions is "Engine must be retained in UNALTERED condition other than Oil Pan , Valve Cover, Harness and Injection and Exhaust Headers." That means stock. If we do this that would completely rewrite the rulebook. So I'm confused by your suggestions. U6SA is supposed to be a medium between stock class with a long checklist for tech inspection and Outlaw class which is no rules. Which Mike Dicely himself has said we cannot go too because of the cost factor. You know this. My biggest suggestion would be to add a "Claimer Rule." It would be $4-5000. And this is a whole other discussion entirely. But it would help keep people honest and help keep costs in check. My other big suggestion is to unite the tracks that run U6SA rules. That way if you get caught cheating at 1 track and get suspended, you simply can't just go to another U6SA track and race with cheater equipment. You become banned from all U6SA tracks. This would also mean changing the name Universal 600 Sprint Association to United 600 Sprint Association.
    250+ people have read this thread so far yet only 2 people have commented. 2 people can't create the rulebook. Come on everyone what's your opinion?

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  • LHS Engines
    replied
    OK i give up . There is a stock class already in place if that is what you want. So bring on the power I rules i'm for it.
    What i'm talking about is the hard core aftermarket parts and machining not adjustable cam gears, 200 rpm or resurfacing a head. And I would doubt that that bottle of top lube will save
    you a rebuild. But i could be wrong .

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  • Wrench35
    replied
    When I say criticize me, I mean, shoot holes in my ideas. That's the idea here. Make the rulebook bulletproof. It sounds to me like your pushing for almost a pure stock class.
    The reason the rulebook was opened up is to give you, the engine builder, the ability to put your speed secrets into it and make you some money on these builds. Do you wanna build stock motors all day? How long before someone starts asking you to set 1 of the cams a tooth off because it makes more hp? How long before were back to the same rulebook were at now?
    The problem with too many rules is, it's too hard to tech without ripping motors apart every week.
    Now onto some of your responses.
    1: That means now the 636 kawi is the only motor legal to be 636. In that case, 2: should only be 14,800 which is what the current rule is for this motor. 3: That leaves no over-rev tolerance for people running 16,100 currently. Why restrict one set of motors by 100 rpm but than allow another motor to rev 200 past its current rule? 5: What i'm saying is alcohol has no upper cylinder lubricant. So a lot of guys run top lube to give it that lubrication. If this is about costs. What's cheaper, a bottle of top lube or an engine rebuild? 6: Everyone is gonna have there opinion of this. That's why I said run whatever air/fuel delivery system you want. Simply tech, looking for rev limit and charging system. 8: No matter how bulletproof you make this rulebook, there will still be people cheating.
    I like the idea that if there is a major overhaul to the rulebook there needs to be a grace period to run the motors out. But the line has to be drawn somewhere. It can be no more than 6 months out. Reason being, guys with endless pockets with run that motor until the second it becomes illegal. Whereas budget teams will fix it right away because they cant afford a rebuild mid season or another motor too just sit around waiting for the deadline. That leaves the budget teams out hp'd until the money teams motor becomes illegal.

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  • LHS Engines
    replied
    Well I,m not going to criticize ya but i will answer your questions . I'm glad for the feed back really .

    For # 1 yes that would be correct no over bore or stroked or destroked cranks . Remember trying to keep cost down , if you ever had this done you already know the cost.
    for # 3 That is why I put in the extra 100 rpm allowance.
    For # 5 I don't care about what other classes run I would like to stay with Alcohol in the 600 class for safety and simple tech , but still no additives.
    for # 6 As far as mixing parts it wasn't allowed at one time and still should not be allowed , somehow it has been removed from the U6SA rules . Now here is why I don't care for
    mixing of parts. If I want to use mechanical fuel injection which is legal for U6SA I must use the stock throttle bodies . But if I use electronic fuel injection I can install any type
    year or model on any make or engine I want. Still think thats fair ? I don't .
    for #8 You are correct how do you enforce it . Well ya have to start somewhere and I think this is a good plan to start with . As far as resurfacing a head allow it my lord . What i'm
    referring to are the cut rotors, carillo rods , aftermarket piston and altered pistons. These items were grandfathered in because there were so many out there already . Shouldn't
    have happened . Inex had the same problems because of some engine builders did the same thing . No big deal but that is why we are talking about this . It is costly and it is out of
    hand. Now we have lightened cranks out there should they be grandfathered in as well because there are so many out there ? Now for all the engines that are out there with the overbore
    carillo rods and any other modification that increases the cost give these people a year or two to run them out. I even have these items on stock if ya want them I have .
    But like I said ya have to start somewhere.

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  • Wrench35
    replied
    Alright I like the thoughts but I'm gonna criticize it a little.

    1: 640cc limit Stock bore, stock stroke? Does this mean you can no longer build say a 05 R6 to 636 as the rules currently allow?
    2: 640cc rev limit 15,000 I'm ok with.
    3: 599cc rev limit 16,000. No, it should stay 16,100. That what the current 06+ r6r is allowed to rev along with all other engines that stay 599cc.
    4: Everywhere I've been the rule has been 775 winged. 750 wingless.
    5: Alcohol fuel only (no additives). I understand the thought because you move up to 305's or any other "higher" class they don't allow additives (including top lube).
    6: No mixing of parts from different years, makes and models. I'm assuming your referring to the use of the 08+ adjustable stack injection on say a Suzuki motor. I've heard time again people say the engine does not care how the air/fuel mix gets into the engine. My feeling is, if you wanna run 08+ r6r injection on a 98 F3, go right ahead and do it. Now as far mixing of the hard engine parts. I've heard of people putting an 05 r6 top end on an 02 r6 bottom end. This should not be allowed because how do you tech it? Is it a 05 r6 or an 02 r6?
    7: Engine must be 2 years old before being eligible for competition. I like but it should be 1 year. That way if a new engine design comes out it gives the u6sa time to see how that engine fits into our rulebook.
    8: Engine must remain unaltered except for the items you listed. I don't think you be able to properly enforce this rule. Too many engines out there already with carillo rods, aftermarket pistons, shaved head etc. etc. etc.

    Sorry for the long response. As you said the rules aren't that far off. Just some grey areas that need to be eliminated. Go ahead criticize me.

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  • LHS Engines
    started a topic 2014 U6SA Engine Rule Proposal

    2014 U6SA Engine Rule Proposal

    Once again I don't think our engine rules are not that far off, but I think they need to be cleaned up and easier to follow. And as far as keeping cost down. Don't forget that is why U6SA rules where made . That is why the words stock and oem cannot be used in these rules . If you really want to keep cost down you need to use the word UNALTERED . This one word will save you more than anything else in the engine rules . Just my opinion . I am an engine builder as well but I'm not a U6SA member and don't have a vote either , but this may change . These are the engine rule changes I would like to propose. Just to make tech easier and not so difficult to read .

    640cc limit
    Stock bore , Stock Stroke ( yes I know I just used the word Stock )
    640cc Rev limit 15000 ( 100 RPM allowance )
    599cc Rev limit 16000 ( 100 RPM allowance )
    Weight Limits for Winged and Non Winged
    Alcohol Fuel Only ( No Additives )
    No mixing of parts from difference of years, makes and models ( this use to a rule )
    Engine must at least 2 years old to be used for U6SA Rules
    Engine must be retained in UNALTERED condition other than Oil Pan , Valve Cover, Harness and Injection and Exhaust Headers
    No rule changes without a vote

    I'm sure I have missed somethings but feel free to add to it.
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